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A GUY MEETS HIS FORMER BO...
Forum: Gay couples
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END OF A GAY COUPLE
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GAY DREAMS AND REAL LIFE
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GAY LOVE AS AN ANTIDOTE T...
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HOW TO REGISTER ON THIS F...
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IMPORTANT NOTICE
Forum: Announcements and Services
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GAY SEX AND DEPRESSION
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COOLING OF A GAY COUPLE A...
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GAY SEX AND AFFECTIVE INV...
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GAYS BETWEEN DREAM AND RE...
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| A GAY GUY AND HIS FATHER |
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Posted by: gayprojectforum - 03-20-2019, 06:18 PM - Forum: True gay stories
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Hello Project,
I minimize compliments for the forum, which is truly unique. I say nothing more. I wrote to you to give the Forum my small contribution.
I’m 49 years old, an uncertain age in which one is neither old nor young, in other times I would have been called mature, but let us leave the definitions apart. I lost my father when I was 37 years old. My mother had died of cancer when I was 16 and I have a rather confused memory of her, linked above all to her illness. In practice I lived for 21 years with my father and it is to him that I would like to dedicate this writing, on Saint Joseph's day, Father's Day, also because his name too was Joseph.
I have often read, both in the forum and elsewhere, stories of family misunderstandings, rejection of gay sons, escaping from the family but nevertheless I found a real mentor in my father, even with regards to my being gay.
After my mother's funeral, we found ourselves, in the evening, alone in the house with the television off, sitting facing each other and I saw my father crying in despair. Of this I have a very clear memory. He and my mother really loved each other. During her illness he followed her with the utmost attention trying to make her suffer as little as possible and she told him so many beautiful things to try not to make him collapse psychologically.
On the evening of the funeral, when I saw my father truly desperate, I hugged him like Mom used to do and I held him tight, I was 16 but I knew he would calm down like that. He told me:
"Let's go out!"
I nodded yes and went to get my coat, because it was January. We walked a lot, but slowly, without saying a word, we passed in front of the hospital where mum was dead and even there we didn't say a word, it was like mom was among us. We returned home and Dad went straight to the kitchen to make me something to eat, but I told him:
"Sit there, I'll take care of it."
But we prepared everything working together, then we went to bed, but we didn't sleep, neither he nor I. The next day he had to think of many bureaucratic things, death certificates and communications to stop the payment of my mother's pensions and her salary.
I had to go to school. My mates and teachers made me understand that they loved me and I tried to get back into the ordinary school mechanism as soon as possible. I had known Biagio (a fancy name), a guy a year older than me, and I had lost my mind for him, he was serious, he loved me, he was never excessive, and then he was a beautiful guy, or at least he seemed beautiful to me, in short he was the guy of my dreams. I could saw him only at school, there was no occasion to study together because he was older than me and attended the next class and this made me sad.
At home, the relationship with my father was good, as it had always been. He used to gave me maximum freedom, he trusted me 100%, sometimes he gave me some responsibilities: to go to the Local Health Unit or to the accountant. As soon as I turned 18, he gave me a rechargeable credit card and every month he put some money into it and he never asked me what I did with it.
I never thought that my father could remarry or fall in love with another woman and in fact it never happened. He lived for me, trying never to be invasive, to stay at a distance, to leave me free. Some evenings I came home late, even very late, but he didn't say anything to me.
I had arrived at the age of 21, I was in my third year at university and my story with Biagio had become the most beautiful thing in my life, but just then a terrible thing happened, Biagio lost both his parents in a car accident, he felt destroyed . After the funeral he didn't know how to untangle all his concrete problems, because he was an only child and had no idea what to do with the inheritance and all the bureaucratic and economic problems. I talked to my father about it and that's how my father met Biagio.
Dad called him on the phone and we met in three. Biagio trusted my father, at the beginning just because he was my father but then they quickly reached a very frank understanding.
Once the legal questions of the inheritance were settled, the economic ones remained, Biagio had inherited his parents' house, but he was still at university, he didn't work and he didn't know how to go on himself, in practice he would have had to sell the house to finish his studies. Biagio's relatives did not want problems of any kind. Dad realized the situation and I also think he realized that Biagio was my boyfriend.
One day he tells me:
"He can stay with us, so he can rent the house to get a small income to finish his studies ... what do you say?"
I answer him only:
"It would be a great thing!"
Dad calls him on the phone and invites him to dinner with us, Biagio accepts. Dad prepares a superlative dinner, he wants Biagio to feel at ease. When Biagio arrives Dad treats him like a son, with the utmost naturalness. Biagio feels himself once again inserted into a family atmosphere and is visibly happy, then dad tells him about his proposal and Biagio says yes. Then I get up and hug him, a little like we used to do when we were alone. Biagio is clearly embarrassed but Dad says:
"Don't worry, no problem for me!"
That was our coming out.
From that evening we slept in the same room and after a few weeks in the same bed. Dad had started working overtime to bring a little more money home. Biagio worked hard to study and graduated after a few months. He got an excellent job offer, but he should have moved to another city and he dropped the offer, then opted for a much less qualified job that would have allowed him to stay with us. I noticed that Biagio did not want to contribute to the home budget but we established together the three of us that, with the exception of a personal fund of 300 euros a month for small expenses, we would have put our earnings together, as it happens in a real family.
We made strong savings and put aside some money that would have allowed us to buy a small apartment to live in as a couple, if Biagio had had other job offers. In the meantime I graduated in a field very close to that of Biagio and after about six months we found a rare opportunity to be able to work both of us in another region but with excellent job prospects. But Biagio didn't want to buy a house, I didn't understand why and he told me:
"We have to rent a slightly larger apartment and Dad will come to live with us! So he can rent the apartment where we are now and we will be able to reduce the costs and in a little while we will be able to buy a bigger apartment to stay there all together the three of us."
And so we did.
Dad had retired in the meantime and he was at home, doing the shopping, cooking, keeping the house tidy, we saw him grow old but we loved him and he was happy to be with us and he often said so.
Then Biagio understood that Dad would have liked to live a little out of town. When Dad was 67 we bought an independent house with 5000 meters of land around. Dad was happy, he had built a garden, he had designing it in advance with criteria of maximum rationality, he cultivated a lot of things, we didn’t spend money on fruit and vegetables and we were sure that Dad would have brought us only genuine food.
It went like this until Dad turned 70, then he got sick and we soon realized that there would be nothing to do, he understood it too, but he often told us that he was not afraid of death and that his life had been a full and happy life. Biagio has done for my father what I believe no son would do for his own. We saw him go away quietly while holding hands each other, after telling us he loved us. I saw Biagio cry really violently, because he felt like an orphan for the second time.
12 years have passed since then. Biagio has kept all my father's things as real relics, especially the photographs he had taken of him. For us he was and still is a model of life, that's why Dad Joseph will always remain in our hearts.
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| A MARRIED MAN WITH GAY FEELINGS |
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Posted by: HappySoul - 03-15-2019, 06:00 PM - Forum: Understand to be gay
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Hello Project,
your forum is very interesting but I could not register, I had to look for your e-mail on the Italian forum, because there was not here. I sent you a short e-mail and you answered in a surprising and unexpected, almost enthusiastic way. In fact, the users of the forum are very few. I read your "Being Gay" manual and found myself there. I have seen that now your e-mail is also accessible on this forum and you have changed the registration procedure just as I suggested, and I'm glad of that, because I think it could increase the number of people registered in the Forum.
Now, however, we come to the question I would like to bring to you. I’m gay but I’m also married and have two children, whom I love very much. My wife is a good woman and I love her too, but even if going with a woman does not cause me repulsion and with a little good will I succeed in completing the intercourse with a woman, my sexuality is certainly not straight neither bisexual.
I forgot something important, I'm 38 years old. I have never betrayed my wife with women or men, but I have made many fantasies about so many guys I know, and I have known some of them for several years and we are also friends. Those friends involve me sexually, even if only with their presence, much more than any woman in the hetero theoretically more engaging situation could do.
With those friends I go on vacation in the mountains, for two or three days, more or less once a month, we are generally in three and this prevents me from slipping towards forms of sexual involvement, but I can say that I wait for the weekend in which we will go to the mountains as one expects a day of total involvement. We sleep in the same room but in separate beds and it is so cold that we go to bed bundled up and therefore sleeping in the same room doesn’t even encourage the slightest sexual involvement.
Of the two friends who tempt me the most, one (John) is 35 years old, married and has two children (but this means nothing, because I have two children too!), The other (Paul) is 31 and by what I know, he has never had a girlfriend. When we go to the mountains we never talk about sex, in theory for the privacy of our wives and not to put Paul in trouble, but perhaps above all to avoid dangerous speeches.
What amazes me about these short winter holidays, is that we never get bored, there is a magical atmosphere, I see that they are happy, that they are very free in their behavior, it is as if something related to sexuality wandered anyway in the air. We smile, we laugh, we talk about our weaknesses, for example the need for cuddling, wanting to be children inside, not feeling grown up, and so on, then with some more beer, the atmosphere becomes very hot and almost sexual.
Some erections can be seen but we don’t go further. There is a wonderful atmosphere of an exclusively masculine environment, I would say that between the three of us there is a very involving real affective union.
Here, Project, I wonder what all this has to do with homosexuality? I tried to tell other friends a story similar to the one we live in, but they trivialized it, they laughed, they said nonsense. I wonder: do straight guys and men also experience forms of male involvement like those we experience? And I'm not saying I but we.
Recently there has been an evolution throughout this story. My wife must have understood the meaning that my friends have for me. She encouraged me to go on vacation with them because she tells me that when I come back she sees that I’m happier, and actually it is.
She added that she loves me as I’m because I’m a good person and she understands that I must have my freedom. This speech baffled me, but positively.
Of course the fantasy runs ahead and it is difficult to stop it, but I have found my own homosexual emotional world. For sex, well, I do it myself. With my wife, there has been no sex for years, but she doesn't feel frustrated, because for her, sex was never the fundamental interest. All in all I don’t feel frustrated, neither on the straight side, because I have a wife and two beautiful children, nor on the gay side, because I have a real gay world and I think I will not lose it. Now you understand, Project, because I chose the HappySoul for my nick!
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| HOW TO CONTACT GAYPROJECT ALSO KNOW AS PROJECT |
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Posted by: gayprojectforum - 03-15-2019, 02:42 PM - Forum: Announcements and Services
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HOW TO CONTACT GAYPROJECT ALSO KNOW AS PROJECT
You can send gayproject an e-mail to the address: gayproject (at) ymail (dot) com
Instead of (at) insert the classic @ and instead of (dot) the classic .
All this is to prevent an address that appears explicitly on the internet from becoming the subject of automatic spam.
Please write "for project" (all lower case) in the subject line, possibly followed by something else, to avoid the risk that anti-spam systems will delete the email before opening. Do not insert files of any kind or even photos into the email, otherwise your email may be considered dangerous by the security systems and may be deleted before opening.
Gayproject will reply to you as soon as possible.
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| BAYARD TAYLOR HOMOSEXUAL |
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Posted by: gayprojectforum - 03-14-2019, 08:19 PM - Forum: Homosexuality in history and literature
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Bayard Taylor (January 11, 1825 - December 19, 1878), is a well-known figure of the American literature. He traveled in many countries of the world: India, China, Japan, Egypt, he was an important diplomat, in 1862 he was secretary of the US embassy in St. Petersburg and for a short period between ‘62 and ‘63 he took over the functions of ambassador after the resignation of the previous ambassador, in 1878 the U. S. Senate ratified his appointment as U.S. ambassador to Prussia, where shortly after Taylor died.
The life of this man was fascinating and frantic, in 1849 he married Mary Agnew, who died the following year of tuberculosis, in October 1857, he married Maria Hansen, daughter of the Danish-German astronomer Peter Hansen.
Taylor confided to Walt Whitman that he had found in his very nature «A physical attraction and a tender and noble love of man for man.»
In Queers in History by Keith Stern, it is revealed that the love of a lifetime of Taylor was George Henry Boker, although both were married.
Mitch Gould reports that the American banker, diplomat and poet George Boker wrote to Taylor in 1856:
«Never loved anything human as I love you. It is a joy and a pride to my heart to know that this feeling is returned.» [The Routledge Encyclopedia of Walt Whitman by J. R. LeMaster, Donald D. Kummings, p. 704.]
Taylor's novel “Joseph and His Friend” (1870), which depicts men holding hands and kissing, a little following the example of Walt Whitman, is considered the first American gay novel. [Austen, Roger (1977). Playing the Game: The Homosexual Novel in America. Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill. pp. 9–10.]
This novel is said to be based on the romantic relationship between the poets Fitz-Greene Halleck and Joseph Rodman Drake. Fitz-Greene Halleck (July 8, 1790 - November 19, 1867) was five years older than his friend Joseph Rodman Drake (August 7, 1795 - September 21, 1820).
Drake in 1816, still very young, married Sarah (daughter of Henry Eckford, a naval architect) from whom he had a daughter. He died of consumption at the age of 25.
Halleck never married, he fell in love at 19 with a young Cuban, Carlos Menie, to whom he dedicated some of his first poems.
Hallock, Halleck's biographer, thinks that Halleck was in love with his friend Drake. James Grant Wilson emphasized the way in which Halleck, who was present at the wedding as the groom's best friend (a formal role at that time, as we can deduce also by Taylor's novel), described the marriage:
«[Drake] has married, and, as his wife’s father is rich, I imagine he will write no more. He was poor, as poets, of course, always are, and offered himself a sacrifice at the shrine of Hymen to shun the ’pains and penalties’ of poverty. I officiated as groomsman, though much against my will. His wife was good natured, and loves him to distraction. He is perhaps the handsomest man in New York, — a face like an angel, a form like an Apollo; and, as I well knew that his person was the true index of his mind, I felt myself during the ceremony as committing a crime in aiding and assisting such a sacrifice.» [James Grant Wilson, The Life and Letters of Fitz-Greene Halleck. New York: Appleton and Company, 1869: 184.]
Taylor knew Halleck, even though Halleck belonged to the previous generation and, certainly, the history of the relationship between Halleck and Drake has left deep traces in Taylor’s novel, but we are not able to understand exactly in what way and up to what point.
It is undeniable that “Joseph and his friend” implies, and not so covertly, a homosexual dimension, this dimension emerges from the quotation of Shakespeare's sonnets under the title of the novel, but the very tone of Taylor's short introduction and many other passages of the novel leave absolutely no doubt. It is a homosexuality that is never explicit, never declared, essentially affective, in many respects similar to that of Walt Whitman, in which masculine friendship is mixed with affection and obviously no one talks about sex.
Even the most profoundly homosexual character, Philip, has lived or seems to have lived stories with women and, still at the end of the novel, he seems to hope that a woman's love can get him out of the disappointment of his love for Joseph, pursued for a long time but unachievable because Joseph manifests heterosexual interests.
In developing the parallel between the history of Halleck and Drake and that of Philip and Joseph, it can be noted that the age difference between Hellack and Drake is practically the same as that between Philip and Joseph. Joseph, like Drake, marries "perhaps" without understanding what he is doing, at least this is Halleck-Philip's point of view, but "perhaps" he marries because the charm and above all the feminine seduction have an effect on him.
Julia, Joseph's wife, drags him into disastrous business and crazy spending, reducing him almost to ruin. The situation between husband and wife becomes exasperated. Julia will die in unclear circumstances and Joseph will be accused of having murdered her but will be saved by Philip who will conduct the investigations in his favor and will obtain full acquittal from all charges.
After the trial, Joseph will leave for a year and Philip will wait for him in the belief that in the future he can build a life with his friend, but Philip has a sister and Joseph falls in love with her. Philip sees them in the meadow in the attitude of two lovers and understands that his life plan no longer exists and that from now on he will have to live "through a third person".
In the plot of this story there are also other events related to the discovery of oil in Pennsilvanya and to characters like Mr. Blessing, Julia's father, who seems at first to be a cheat, or at least an incurable naive, who will prove instead to be one of the best friends of his son-in-law.
The novel is beautiful, and in reading it I experienced moments of deep emotion, because, in the end, the gay content of the book is eternal, it doesn’t belong only to the nineteenth-century, but actually belongs to a timeless homosexual dimension.
You can read "Joseph and his friend" on the page:
If there is someone among you who can read Italian, I also point out my online Italian translation:
Reading here and there among Taylor's works I found a tale, "Twin-Love", that I liked very much and that I propose for your reading. The text presents many deliberate ambiguities that are based on the fact that the pronoun "you" is both singular and plural, and this, when you speak to one of two twins, is certainly not indifferent.
The core of the story is built on the inseparability of two twins, David and Jonathan (the names are not at all random, but refer to the relationship between the future King David and Jonathan son of King Samuel. David, after Jonathan's death, will say of Jonathan: "I loved you more than people love a woman!"
Taylor's Jonathan will marry and this will lead him to a painful but not definitive separation from his brother.
Many dialogues and many situations of the tale seem exactly like those that can arise in a relationship between two homosexual lovers, who are such beyond suspicion, and also the trauma that follows the marriage of one of the two twins makes one think of the analogous situation that is created when in a homosexual couple, one of the two partners decides to marry a woman.
The tale "Twin Love" in many respects is similar to the novel "Joseph and his friend", but in "Twin-Love" we notice the presence of Ruth the wife of Jonathan, who actually loves both brothers in the same way. Ruth however doesn’t give rise to easy plot twists in the manner of Plautus, she is treated with extreme psychological finesse.
The female character of Ruth demolishes the myth of the hetero couple and tends to legitimize a union of three people beyond the couple, at least on an affective level, while in "Joseph and his friend" the female character of Julia, who dominates much of the novel, is outlined in a way that reveals more than a few veins of misogyny, even if Julia belongs to a high social class which is probably the real target of Taylor's criticisms.
You can read "Twin-Love" on the page:
If among you there is someone who reads Italian, I also point out my online Italian translation:
Enjoy the reading.
Project
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| GAY COUPLE BEYOND MYTH |
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Posted by: gayprojectforum - 03-13-2019, 03:26 AM - Forum: Gay couples
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Hello Project,
I wrote you the first time in January 2016, and I told you my story, I was then 36 years old and I had been for four years with a guy 31 years old, whom I will call Luca. I had exposed to you some of my doubts, which seemed small to me, and I felt myself a great man in not giving value to those doubts and in wanting to go on anyway for my boyfriend's sake, I felt generous, somehow superior to the calculations and the meanness of the world. You replied to me with an email that baffled me greatly. In general you tend to see the positive in the stories, even in those, let's say so, more anomalous, and my story had very little of anomalous, it was just the classic story of the gay couple, and yet you used very harsh tones and that, I tell you honestly, bothered me. I report below a section of your email of January 16, 2016.
"In your couple relationship apparently there is everything there must be: there is engaging sex (perhaps) but without tenderness, there is a lot of reciprocal freedom (at the limit of disinterest), there is some emotional blackmail too, and there is no cohabitation, which I think would bring all the things just mentioned to an explosive level.
Luca tells you that you depress him, that talking to you makes him feel bad, you are looking for an outlet in talking to him, but he considers you a burden, he wants to follow his path and he blames you for not taking care of him, but sorry if I ask you, but are you really sure you love him? That you love him as he is? I think you built a kind of mask on him, maybe you fell in love with that mask. Excuse me if I speak clearly, but I don't see a real couple story between you.
I think that you have very little interest in your couple life and on the other hand, not everyone is born for such things, and he, is interested in having a partner who does what he wants, as he wants, more than in having a partner with whom to share life. In essence, there is no common project."
Reading this passage made me feel a very strange sensation, on the one hand I rejected it, it seemed ungenerous to Luca, but for the other, over time, I began to find it somehow true. There was never an opportunity to test the relationship with a true coexistence and I began to wonder if I really wanted that coexistence that would perhaps have caused contradictions to break out.
When I used to see Luca in order to have sex with him, things were going well, if we want to say so, even if there were a lot of forcing, but things were acceptable above all because we didn't talk at all or almost at all. When he couldn't come to my house or I had big family problems or work problems, we chatted on the phone and there, inevitably the contradictions started to come out and there it started to come to mind that maybe I would have been better alone and that I was stuck in a street in which I didn’t feel at ease and from which I wouldn’t have get rid anymore. Then the recriminations began, first just hinted at, then more and more explicit, he told me that I have no mettle that I never answer in a clear way, that I play a double game, that I always look for ways out, that I’m not really involved, and in the end that basically I don't love him.
Thursday evening, after a very long and terrible phone call in which the mutual misunderstandings really exploded, he told me that he would cancel my numbers and he wouldn't call me anymore, I told him he had to do it really, because I can only do damage and we have closed the phone this way. At the time I felt a sensation of unimaginable lightness. I thought that over time I would have missed Luca, but, at least until today, it has not happened and I begin to wish that the story is really over. Because at other times, after similar scenes, things started again.
At the moment I feel a feeling of freedom "from" rather than freedom "of". I have no desire to be with anyone, I want to enjoy my being alone, my free time, the absence of long and harassing phone calls, the absence of accusations of inconsistency and disaffection. And I start to think that when I said I was in love with Luca, I really didn't care much about him.
Do I feel gay? Yes, somehow yes, but in a very superficial way, today I think that I wouldn’t sacrifice my freedom for anyone. I paid my tribute to the myth of the gay couple but now I just left the cage. It was an experience that made me mature. From today onwards, gay friends yes, much better if already as a couple, friends to talk a little with, to drink a beer, and then to go back alone to my house. The idea of sharing life with someone I see it very far from me. Even sex somehow stewed me, but what's its use? The straight sex, in some cases may be useful to have children, but the gay one ends up being a fetish to which a lot of fundamental things are sacrificed. Gay sex is good to dream about, at least in dreams there are no problems, but looking for a guy to have sex with, or simply having sex with him is something I experienced and that has lasted years, but that, seen through the eyes of now, seems really absurd to me.
Project, you talk about love, but does it exist? It doesn’t even make sense to ask questions, because the answers have nothing objective but only reflect individual experience and are as vague as experience.
I tell you something that came to my mind: it would nice if there were gay couple relationships without sex, this way things would probably work. It seems ridiculous, I know, anyway, today as today, I would rather prefer a serious friendship than a couple relationship in which sex has a fundamental role.
One thing I didn’t understand: how did you predict, three years ago, that my story was going to an end?
If you want you can publish the email, which doesn’t violate anyone's privacy.
I wish you the best.
A.M.
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| HOW TO LEARN THE GAY SEX |
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Posted by: gayprojectforum - 03-11-2019, 03:04 PM - Forum: Gays and sex
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Hi Project,
reading here and there in your blogs I found a lot of very different things, I have some experience of gay things, I have seen and sometimes experienced things of every kind and I appreciate that you don’t make an ideological discourse but try to represent a very complex reality for what it is.
Everyone lives sexuality his own way, more or less sublimated, when you call someone gay, basically you identify a single characteristic of a person, which is very important, no doubt, but which can have the most opposite outcomes in real terms. I am 46 years old, I'm not a kid. Somehow I lived my being gay and it was basically much better agreeable than I imagined it twenty years ago, I have "serious" gay friends, as you would say, and I have also a boyfriend, whom I will call Carlo here, with whom I have lived for 13 years, he is ten years younger than me. We love each other, we have had our skirmishes, but after 13 years we are still together and it has now become a reality of our life.
We are a tight couple, I never thought I could be betrayed by Carlo, nor did he think I could betray him, because there is undoubtedly an agreement or better a shared love between us. You will tell me that if things are so basically there is no problem, but the problem is there anyway.
I cannot say why, but I begin to feel tired, not tired of my relationship with Carlo, but just tired physically, mentally, stressed. I have a great job, but it takes away my tranquility, it is as if I always lived in a precarious situation. I work from morning to night and sometimes even at night. Certainly there are satisfactions in my work, but perhaps the price to pay is too much high. I don’t know, there might also be other reasons. I have been to my doctor, who has had me do a series of clinical tests but nothing particular has emerged from it.
However I feel fatigue and here begins my "couple problem", if I can call it so, because in reality Carlo has nothing to do with it and continues to behave with me as he has always done. Apart from being several years younger than me, it was always him who gave the tone to sexuality between us. For him, sex is a very important thing not only in terms of affection and contact between two people, but for what can be done together, that is, I clearly feel that for him a generic physical contact is not enough while I would certainly feel satisfied limiting myself just to that. He wants a more performing, more transgressive sexuality.
I'm fine with him and the sex with him is very important for me too, but for me what matters is the fact that he is there, that I can feel his warmth and the fact that he participates in a very involved and involving way, for him it's also something else and I'm not always up to the situation. It is not technically that things don’t work, but at the level of underlying psychological motivation.
He tells me that I don’t have to say no, that I have to do it for him, and I can agree on that, but it's as if I started wondering if he realizes that sometimes I would feel happy with him with just a little pampering. And here I wonder what I have to do to maintain a balance, must I adapt to him or should he adapt to me? Historically I was the one to adapt, but the expression is stupid, let's say I followed him and I learned from him what sex is. I cannot deny that I understood many things through him, to which I would never have arrived alone or with other guys.
Let's say that between us there has always been, in terms of sex, a typical relationship of teacher (him) and student (me). He slowly led me to overcome my resistance, to minimize my problems with sex, to accept the normality of sex life, and all this was positive, but sometimes he seemed to me and still seems too insistent. He knows how to involve me, he is convinced that he must help me to get rid of a lot of fake problems and that I am too complicated and blocked, and perhaps a little it is also true, but some of his behaviors seem to me a bit too much insinuating.
Recently I told him how I feel and that I have many other things on my mind and I had the impression that he didn’t really realize that at some moments I don’t feel really comfortable with him and I feel also harassed by him, by his insistence. I have come to tell him that at certain times I'd rather be alone, and he considered such a statement almost as if it were an offense. He left for a week to visit his parents and left me alone.
Then he called me but in a way that left me perplexed, he told me: "You know what I want!" And I said to him: "Damn you! But what are you waiting for?" He came back home in the evening and I can only say that it was a nice evening of sex, tiring for me, but it was a nice evening in the full sense of the term. At the end he asked me: "Something's wrong?" And I threw him on the bed and kissed him without letting him saying a word.
After all this story, you will tell me: "Where is the problem?" Sometimes I don’t even know, I think that with a guy his age or even younger he could feel better, sometimes I think that if he went away because he found a boy and fell in love, well, at the end, I would not feel uncomfortable, but it never happened.
What can he find in me? I just cannot understand it. He knows he has an real power on me and knows that in the end I would never say no to him, but does he ever think of me? Does he think of what can worry me, of the thousand problems I have when I'm with him? He usually disregards such matters and says that I am too talkative, like a Hamlet, who chats too much because he still hasn’t learned to really let himself go and to love his boyfriend.
He tells me that I should be happy to make him happy and instead I don’t stop complaining and he gets depressed because he thinks he will never get me out of my melancholy and he knows that he can only succeed with sex. But doesn’t the andropause start at 46? I'm joking of course!
When he is with me I’m always amazed by his spontaneity, by the immediacy of his behavior. He arrives, he undresses, he gets on the bed, I'm slower, then he looks at me and says: "What are you waiting for?" And then he goes wild, and what follows seems almost unbelievable to me! He never mixes sex with words, he is convinced that words can end up ruining sex and on this I think he’s right. I am a lazy student for him, but if suitably motivated I follow my teacher.
In fact I think I have a lot to learn from him even if I fear him a little, I'm not afraid of being cheated by him, because it never happened, but I fear his ability to get what he wants, I fear his insistence, because he never gives up. It's a bit 'as if we were complementary, I teach him affectivity and he teaches me sex and we go on like this. He tells me that when I'm too pensive, he has only one way to get me rid of my thoughts and it could even be true. Do you say it will last?
Mau72
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| GAY COUPLE AND CATS |
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Posted by: gayprojectforum - 03-02-2019, 05:49 PM - Forum: Gay couples
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And well ... and what have I to say? ... I’m ashamed to talk about these things, these are our own things, they are private things and then why should I talk about it with you? So you write them and then someone reads them? ... and what does Peppino say? Did you ask Peppino about? ...
Well, he always says yes, he never said no to anyone ... he's a good man, no, no ... I really can say this ... he's a really good man ... but sometimes he exaggerates a bit ... now in our building people take him for crazy, but he’s not crazy at all ... no, no ... it all started with the story of cats ... yes, yes, cats ... we had a cat, just one, to keep a cat at home is something that many do, then he came with another cat, a newborn kitten, he says that that the kitten was abandoned, had no mother, and would have made a bad end ... and what does he do? ... He thinks that he can be the mother ... yes, yes, the mother of the kitten, yes ... do you believe that a newborn kitten is like an adult cat? ... he had to nurse the little kitten with a dropper and not once ... seven or eight times a day ... in short, the story was that he put aside whatever else and took care only of cats ...
Then, when the little kitten had not grown up yet he brought me another one ... and what was I supposed to do? We took also this third cat! And what should we do? I told him ... and what do you want to do? Did you become a cat-keeper? You must think of me, not of cats! If I was a cat you would take care of me even more than how you really do ... but now you have to think of cats! ... And he felt like a beaten dog and I said: And smile a little! On! You are my cat-keeper! ... In short ... we have arrived to have eight or ten cats at home ... eight! Did you understand? … Alright then! But this way he was happy ... and what had I to do ... in short, we took them ...
Then another story came to his mind ... that there were other cats at the municipal park and that nobody thought of them ... so I said ... "Listen Peppi'! ... but it is not that now we want to bring home all the cats in the city?" And he said: "Absolutely not! ... You don’t even have to think about it ... " ... but the fact is that now the little kittens had grown big and he used to go out in the morning to bring food to cats at the municipal park ... and it is not that he brought the leftovers ... no , no ... in the evening he cooked ... yes, yes! ... He cooked especially for cats and all good stuff that I would have eaten it too ...
Now you know how it is people here ... in short, that they are always busy but not with their own business. They saw him go out with the bags in the morning and they all knew where he was going ... when he passed by they said: There, see there? The cat-keeper is there! ... and I had become the friend of the cat-keeper.
At the beginning he used to leave the food for cats near the building in the center of the municipal park ... then once they put a fine on him ... because they said that he used to dirty everything ... in short, that there was danger that the rats would arrive ... in short, 150 euros! Did you understand?
But do you believe that those of the municipality have ended it so? ... certainly not, that those employ so many people, a lot of people that are there without doing anything ... and because people called him "cat-keeper" ... what did they do those good people of the municipality? They sent the social worker ... a woman ... but I told her ... “But what are you looking for here?” That I never thought it was for cats, in short you have understood what I thought ... and what had I to think? .. So she began a preach ... and hygiene ... and the house dirty ... and spy behaviors ... exactly so … but what? That it was she the spy ... not my little Peppino, who has always been a good Christian! ...
So you know what the social worker did? ... she gave me a book ... and said that the municipality had done it ... but now it was not really a book ... in short, a small thing, a booklet ... the Handbook of Eco-cat-keeper! Eh! Yes, yes! ... the Eco-cat-keeper Manual ... did you saw what they do at the municipality? ... and then people say that municipal employees do nothing! ... So just to start the conversation I told her ... “But if you ever have to give me the cat feeder handbook you would have to avoid arguments such as spy behaviors”, but she was getting nervous, in short, we took this booklet ... but that was a crazy thing! And it says he had to clean up before putting the food ... and then he had to collect everything, everything ... saucers ... in short, everything ... and it said that if the cats left excrements nearby he had to remove them with the shovel, and had to put them into a closed bag, but then it says that you cannot throw such waste in the dumpster ... in short, what had he to do? Had he to bring excrements home?
Now they have made that law that if you have a dog and the dog poops on the ground you have to collect it from the ground... and that's okay ... but now also that of cats? But how is it that before, when Peppino did not go there, there were excrements on all sides and no one worried ... and now that he goes there the social worker comes out of the blue? She certainly doesn’t go there to clean, she only comes here to annoy us ...
Three or four months ago Peppino got sick and was hospitalized for 15 days ... My god! How terrible have been those 15 days! ... I didn’t understand anything about cats ... he was at the hospital, but he didn’t worry about what illness he had ... no! He thought only of cats ... do you understand? ... And what could I do? ... in the morning and in the evening two hours and two hours with him at the hospital and all the other time I was cooking for the cats, to keep those at home, that those were about ten, and then I had to go to the municipal park ... to bring food to the cats that were there ... and clean up first and clean up after ...
And then there was a policeman at the park ... who was there just because he had to check that I did everything according to the cat book ... and what do you want to do? ... there are so many jobs in this world ... and he had to control me ... he was always there!
Then Peppino came out of the hospital and thank God everything went well ... and I felt happy! Yes, I had some little things to do but he was the chief of the army! He took all decisions ... you know those things that you have to understand if the cat is sick ... if you have to take it to the vet ... that little pension money we get monthly we spent it all to feed the cats and take them to the vet ...
But now all this story what does it have to do with you? ... Ah, ok, ... Now, look around! ... Are there cats at home? … Neither one! Peppino took them to the board ... as there are the boards for Christians ... there are also for cats ... and do you know how he was convinced? ... Well that's another good story ... in short, one day another social worker comes ... that when she said “social worker” I was already closing the door in her face ... I said to her: But another time with the history of cats? She looked at me and said: “What?” ... the social worker of history of cats had nothing to do with her! ...
She told me that it was for an application that Mr. Giuseppe had sent to the municipality ... but what application? I didn’t understand anything! I told her: “Excuse me ... but what question? I don’t know anything!” She pulled out a card, which was just as Peppino writes. So in the end she told me that he would have to show up at the hospital's pediatrics on Monday morning and she left me a card ... then she looked at me and told me: “But did you understand correctly?” Exactly her words ... And I replied that I am an old man, and I’m also an invalid, but I’m not stupid ... well ... and so she’s gone ...
When Peppino came home with the bags of cats, looking at that card he become more and more cheerful and then he explained it to me ... he said he had sent the application to be a volunteer at the hospital ... I told him: “But what can you do? You're not a doctor, you're not a nurse ... you cannot do anything! ... but what are you going to do there? You can only annoy them” ... I told him just like that ... well, you have to see how he became dark, it seemed that the world had collapsed on him ... and what had I to do? ... well, it was too hard for me to see him this way and so I told him a little bit of good things, you know, what you tell when you have to be forgiven ... I told him he was a good man ... that Peppino is really a good man, that it’s always better for Christians that for cats ... that also those are poor beasts ... however, but the Christians are another thing! Then I told him: Would you like a coffee? ... We never quarrel, but when there has been some disagreement ... because in many years there has been some disagreement ... when we made peace we had a cup of coffee together ... In short, we had this coffee and he was newly all happy ... that when Peppino is in a good mood it’s a beautiful thing to see! ...
Now he didn’t know anymore what he had to do with cats ... those at the municipal park were alone before and would have been alone even after ... but he sent a nice letter to the social worker and explained to her everything clearly, that he couldn’t anymore care of the cats and that she should have taken care of the cats herself ... the social worker! She would have to became cat-keeper herself! Then he thought of our cats ... I told him: let's keep one! We have always kept a dozen cats at home ... even they are beasts deserving care! ... And he told me that cats carry diseases and that you cannot work at the hospital and keep cats at home ... and now the world has turned up-down!
So he did so much and said so much, that our dozen cats have been settled all of them: three or four by people in the building ... he said that so he could see them, four or five other, the younger ones, by our friends and two or three to the sister. Those he had given the sister were those who were the sick ones and had to be more looked after ... I will not tell you how the sister reacted! She said: “Do you want to give me some cats? ... but at least give me two cats cats! Not those who can’t even stand up! But Peppino ... was about to devour his sister! "You must love the beasts, that if you treat a beast this way, when it will be your time the others will treat you the same way!" ... well in the end the sister has taken the old cats ... and now Peppino has already gone to annoy his sister many times because he had to know how the cats were! ...
Well, then he did the medical examination ... they found a little bit of high blood pressure and the doctor said he was lucky that they measured the pressure and now he takes some pills ... some small ones for the pressure ... anyway they accepted his application and considered him suitable ... He was frightened that they could not accept him for the story of the pressure ... then they made him attend a course ... and what an interesting thing it was ... I too have looked at all the things they gave him ... you know, all the things of hygiene and then how the hospital is organized and how to receive the relatives ... in short, all such things ... but there were a lot of bad things about the diseases of children ... there were certain ... my God! But in short, you must know some things if you want to be a volunteer ... and then if he has to work at the hospital he must know how to behave ... then, after the month of the course, because it lasted four weeks and he was there three afternoons a week ...
In short, after the course I don't tell you what he did on the first day he went there, he had not slept for three days, always thinking he had to go there ... he was all stunned so that in the morning it was I the one who had to make coffee, he could hardly stand up and I said, "But now that you go to the hospital why don’t let yourself be hospitalized? But don’t you see that you cannot stand up!” But he looked like a spring, jumped on one side and the other ... I accompanied him to the hospital but he didn’t let me in and we said goodbye by the gate. I went home and I prepared lunch ... something very appetizing ... because he was doing something important ... at least that was how he considered it ...
When he got home he couldn't refrain from talking ... and this and that ... he had found what he wanted to do ... that we don’t have children, that if we had had children, they would have become old too ... that he was at ease among the children that they called him grandfather and he was happy ... but also told me how some sick children were ... My God! How does Peppino find the courage to stay there? Those things are bad, are just things that make you heart hurt ... what you say? ... an old man ... and that's fine! But a baby! Jesus! But why? Those haven’t even started ...
So let's leave aside the bad stuff ... in short, Peppino was really happy ... then he got the idea! He looked at me and told me: But why don’t you come you too tomorrow? I thought he wanted me to go with him ... and I said: “Okay, let's go tomorrow together” ... And he smiled at me but you had to see! He made himself red rand gave me a kiss ... something that is really rare between us ... I was asking myself: “How is all this history?” Then I understood ... Peppino wanted me to became a volunteer too! ... but I hadn’t understood anything! ... and now? And what could I do? I couldn’t tell him: Look! You didn’t understand anything, I thought I had to accompany you and not that I had to do what you do ... And no! And how do you do? A thing like that? … and no! Peppino a thing expected and I ... what had I to do? ... So I told him that the next day I would send the application form. He was happy ... but now, you don't have to tell Peppino about this misunderstanding ... no! Otherwise you put me in trouble! You don’t have to write this! If you don’t want to make me really angry! ... So, we understood each other? ... okay ...
So I was saying that then I sent the application form but I have not been considered suitable ... now if it's good or not good I don’t know, but in the end I think I would have been well there ... yes, yes ... ok, it's over this way ... all right ... well I had done it for him ... but I too somehow liked it, before I didn’t have such idea, but then, slowly ... So now Peppino goes there three times in the morning and three times in the afternoon and I stay at home ... I have to go to the municipal park to take care of cats there ... but he bought me a plastic suit ... when I come back I have to wash it right away ... you know, the hygiene! ... but now it’s me the one who takes care of cats ... and do you know how he calls me? When he comes home he tells me: “You are my handsome cat-keeper!” ... And smiles happy ... and what had we to do? But now he’s really happy ...
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| GAY COUPLE WITHOUT CONSTRAINTS |
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Posted by: gayprojectforum - 02-20-2019, 02:05 PM - Forum: Gay couples
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Hi Project,
tonight I feel overwhelmed by thoughts of tenderness. My ex called me this afternoon to tell me that he wanted to make love with me. It's not a strange request, sometimes it happens. He came to my house, as beautiful as the sun, we are not kids, I am 42 and he is 31, but if you saw him you would be entranced. I think I've never seen a nicer guy! I don’t describe the evening, you can only imagine it, to say that it was sex it is reductive, I would say that it was just a form of total tenderness, of intimacy, of wanting to be there. We are not a couple, Project, he has his life, he sees other guys, but I don’t think he is acting with them as he does with me. The meaning of his making love is never reductive, it involves you.
Generally, years ago, after having spent an evening making love with me, he experienced moments of rethinking, rejection and deep melancholy. Maybe it happened this time too, but it was a barely perceptible melancholy, we went together to get a pizza, a very rare event for us. He didn’t want to be accompanied home (he lives very close to my house). The atmosphere was very sweet, perfect. I looked at him, I was enchanted, I looked at his clear eyes, I listened to his voice, I saw him much less neurotic than other times, a bit melancholic but also available to smile at least a little.
I wondered how it is possible that he finds gratifying to make love with me, whot is certainly not the best option. It is true that he has other guys, but he doesn’t belong to anyone, he needs to be accepted, wanted for what he is. Now in my room there is his scent and I feel happy. Years ago we have been together, like a classic couple, but only for eight months, but in substance, later, we never separated. He calls me when he wants and knows that I would never say no to him, not out of generosity towards him, but because I'm fine with him, I'm totally fine. I'm not jealous, I'm looking for love and I don’t think that the fact that he loves others succeeds in stealing something from me, and in fact every time we see each other we don’t have to patch anything up because there's never been a rip.
I cannot say that he "knows that I have always been faithful to him", because this expression is meaningless, he has been my only true friend, partner, and lover, for years now, in my life there is no one else, and my faithfulness costs me nothing, it is something natural, I’m not searching for experiences with other guys, I know I will not lose him, I know that sooner or later he will contact me again and I don’t feel at all alone. He treats me with respect and affection, he knows that he can trust me! When I really needed him, he was next to me.
The sex, the real one, that is, what makes you feel the guy really close, I learned it from him and he had patience because I was a problematic learner. He tells me that I don’t put him in a crisis because I never say no and at the same time I do not give sex an absolute value. He tells me that in a couple, a guy fixed with sex is enough, but if I make comparisons between his way of being fixed with sex and the way of considering the sex of some that I knew before him, the difference seems to me stratospheric. He asks, he insists, but he doesn’t force me, he tells me he wants to see me convinced. Lately he also sometimes tells me incidentally that he loves me and such things are new and somewhat unexpected, but he never tells me it when we have sex.
It's been ten years since I started to hope him to tell me "I love you!" And now it begins to happen. He asks me if I would do the same things I do with him with other guys, he asks me such questions because he knows the answer very well: he is he and the rest doesn’t exist, it is not a way of speaking. Today he told me something that I liked very much: "in sex, the best thing is to see the other who lets himself go totally freely". He in sex is loose and spontaneous, unpredictable, I'm sometimes tired, not because of him but because I've worked all day, and he understands it and tells me he doesn’t want to force me to do anything I don’t want to do, and it's exactly so and so we just stay in bed until we fall asleep.
So many times I feel full of complexes in front of of him, as if I were not able to truly correspond to his needs, because if it is true that I never say no, I never even take the initiative. I know that he also needs something else and I don’t have to be possessive. Sometimes I thought that, paradoxically, in my way of having sex, he could especially like the hesitations, the indecision, his ability to be a teacher, which he does with extreme sweetness. The early days I feared that he might get nervous if sometimes I said no, and sometimes it happened, then over the years he no longer limited himself to asking me to understand him, but he was the first to understand me and avoid insisting. Our relationship has been going on for more than ten years and shows no sign of weariness. I still have the fear of disappointing him, and it is in a sense symmetrical to his fear of insisting too much.
I don’t know if it has been him who has changed me or it was me who have changed him, probably both are true. Apparently our relationship is based on sex, but things are much more complex. When he calls me he tells me that he wants to be with me, that he has his life but that he doesn’t want to be without me, because he doesn’t see reasons to limit himself, since it's he who wants it. He does not really like stupid speeches, those that people do just to say something, if he has something important to tell me about, he doesn’t use half words. Sometimes, years ago, it happened that he got angry with me, now it almost never happens, he just desists, but without claims or frustration. I just wish he smiled more, because he's always serious, he always has a veil of melancholy in his face.
He has achieved great professional successes and in his world he is an esteemed person, yet he doesn’t give these successes any value, he sees them as a way not substantially different from others to earn a living, it is as if his life were elsewhere, especially in the world of affections, but in that world has received a lot of rejections and has encountered a lot misunderstandings. Frankly I cannot understand how a guy can do reject someone like him, perhaps it is precisely the attempt to force things and to build with him a classic couple relationship that eventually destroys the relationship itself. If you ask him for an absolute monogamy, you try to put him on a leash and certainly love cannot be built on obligations.
If you don’t ask him anything he is likely to give you his soul, but if you try to constrain him in some way, then he goes away and doesn’t come back anymore. I don’t understand jealousy, Project, to love and to possess are very different things. I love him, my friends tell me that I'm happy with too little things, but it's a stupid phrase, I love him, I want to see him smile, I want him to be happy, I want the veil of melancholy that he carries become thinner and thinner, until it disappears completely. It took me many years to understand what I was looking for and to detach myself from models that substantially are not mine.
If our relationship really went into crisis, if there were any real misunderstandings, then yes I would feel bad, but such things never happened. In many things he is very different from me, I am calm, often undecided, I am used to long times, he is a decisionist, instinctive, neurotic, anyway we have been for many years a point of reference for each other. He always told me about the guys he fell in love with, and basically he knew that nothing would change between us.
He never told me that he was in love with me, he just shyly starts to tell me he loves me, but I know it's different, and it's not different in terms of sex, I think the real difference is in terms of acceptance. The guys he had fallen in love with wanted to change him at their image and likeness, he, after all, would have been forced to play a role in front of them. I want him as he is because he wanted our relationship founded on total clarity: "I tell you what I am, if you want me, take me like I am, otherwise it is better that each one goes his way." Now after so many years I feel him closer than ever before!
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| A SOFT WAY OF BEING GAY |
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Posted by: gayprojectforum - 02-04-2019, 06:09 PM - Forum: Gay orientation
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Hi Project,
I have been following Gay Project for years and I have to say that it was very useful, first to understand a little more seriously what homosexuality is, because it is a taboo subject for many people and at the beginning it was also for me, and then also to understand how gay guys' attitude towards homosexuality changes over time.
I’m 30 years old, I grew up in an officially secular environment but permeated with almost Catholic respectability. In practice I have heard of politics since I was a child but of moderate politics, more of political theory than of political passion, however, in this field I got an education and I can say that at 30 I still share many of the principles that I have been taught.
As for sexuality, the taboo has been virtually total. Everything was taken for granted to the point that sex was not mentioned at all. I knew that I would meet a girl and that we would get married and have two children, exactly two, not one or two. The friends of my parents, whom I often saw at home, were of the same dough as my parents, all couples with children and very standardized, the speeches were always the same, as if more or less a script was played.
When I was 19 I fell in love with a guy and literally lost my mind for him, he was the son of two teachers, both of them friends of my parents, this put me in crisis because I felt very conditioned by the fact that my parents would have easily noticed what was happening, but in the end the problem was not that. He was a year younger than me and was, or seemed to be the only non-standardized member of the group of my family friends. He was a very handsome guy.
I had put aside the mythic idea of finding a girl and had dedicated myself only to study. I lived thinking of two things only: study and pornography, all in all I was quite happy so, I didn’t have too many problems and I didn’t even consider the idea of finding a real guy. But since I started thinking about Mark (I'll call him so), the son of my parents' friends, my life has changed. In practice he became a fixation, I was in love with him, I fantasized about him, I was so sexually involved that I almost didn’t use pornography anymore.
As you can imagine the classic doubts have begun: is he gay or not? He had never had a girlfriend, but he was also very young, he was the classic good guy always perfect in everything: very good at school, sporty, aware of everything but enthusiastic about nothing, very cautious in speaking, apparently devoid of emotions and feelings.
One day we go out together for a walk, while our parents talk about their things. The embarrassment is total. I would have asked him, "Do you have a girlfriend?" But asking him something like that was not possible. We talked about literature, I tried to introduce the discourse on a literature with at least something gay but he dodged the speech and answered as a school book: only neutral literature, with at most some minimum concessions to politics.
I figured we'd be up early to break the ice but it didn’t happen that way. Our walks in the city were repeated but the script was always the same: pH 7, absolutely neutral. In short, no argument even remotely referable I don’t say to homosexuality, but even to sexuality in general. The relationship with Mark went ahead in these terms for three years: it was always me the one who was looking for him, he didn’t say no, we went out, but then everything ended there.
Frankly, I began to get tired of that perfect guy; he was starting to look like a doll being remote-controlled by his parents. By now I had become detached from my dependence on my parents and I wasn’t even looking for their approval anymore. The relationship with Mark cooled up and vanished. Two years ago I knew that he was gay and that he had a partner, with whom, however, the story had lasted little. At the time I fell in love with him, he didn’t have a boyfriend but evidently he was still too young or simply was not interested in me.
Later, he had gone to study abroad and we had had no more news about him. After the story of Mark I put aside the idea of great loves and beautiful guys who would have changed my life, I finished my studies and I started working in a stressful way, or rather stressful but also well paid and I really became autonomous. I met two gay guys, a couple, but not in gay circles, I met them at work, they were not declared, physically they didn’t attract me at all and with them I was well because I was not the third uncomfortable. Knowing this couple deeply I realized how the way of living homosexuality can be varied.
They were happy to be in pairs and they lived as a couple for years without problems, I was fine by myself and lived so for years without problems. They told me about their life, how they got to be in pairs. In many ways they come from a world far from mine and have had experiences that I would never do, yet they seem good guys, I would never consider them as possible partners of life, but in the end, until now, I found no possible partners of life at all.
I experienced also a bit of sex but only with two or three guys, be quiet, Project, always paying attention to prevention, some of these experiences also led to a half-relationship, but very relaxed, I've never been jealous of those guys, or maybe yes, but only a little bit, they were nice guys, polite, with whom I was fine but I would never have considered them life partners and the same was true of them towards me.
I also had a female friend. I had not absolutely put such a eventuality among the possible things, we felt seldom, but when it happened it was a pleasant thing. I thought then, and I still think so now, that this girl was not in love with me but with a female friend of hers she spoke to me about. In practice she was looking for the friendship, if not for the love of that girl because she thought that girl would never be well with a guy and would end up marrying just to please her family and find a social role.
With my female friend we never got to an explicit speech but it was clear that our relationship had nothing to do with sexual attraction: there has never been a moment of intimacy not even at minimum levels, and indeed on both sides there was the utmost attention to keep the distance. Obviously she officially didn’t know that I was gay, but she probably understood it.
I can say that I didn’t have true friendships with guys. My co-workers were and are all heterosexual, married or with an official girlfriend who is basically a wife. The ones I called friends were the three guys with whom I also had some sexual experience, with them I spoke quite seriously and we understood each other quite well.
One could say that these things are trivial, that true emotional life is not this and so on, but in fact with these guys I was objectively good without expecting impossible things. When I went through difficult times, they didn’t leave me alone and this amazed me and strengthened that link, if we want to say so, superficial but authentic, that united us.
Do you think this could be my gay life? That is, there will not be anything different in the future? Currently I don’t dream anything else, I have a bit of sex, and a bit of affection and at the same time I have no restrictions, I have no obligations, I’m not obliged to the rituals of a lover's life, like: gifts, text messages, phone calls lasting for hours, meetings with parents, something particularly odious, which I could never bear.
On your site I read several posts in which I recognized myself, probably the age of thirty is the age of reason for gays, the age when you become aware of reality and you leave the world of fairy tales. Reading those stories makes me feel less strange. Sometimes, talking in passing in chat (your chat) with some gay guy, I notice that they treat me like a stranger, as one who has to grow up, who has to get rid of a lot of complexes, but they don’t understand that I'm fine so, this is the soft way of being gay and it's my way.
Best wishes.
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| GAYS AND SEXUAL EDUCATION |
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Posted by: gayprojectforum - 01-19-2019, 02:15 PM - Forum: Gays and sex
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This post will try to summarize the effects of sexual education on gay sexuality.
First of all it is necessary to define the concept of sexual education. We start from a premise: the development of studies indicates that sexuality has a genetic-epigenetic base which is substantially defined already in the uterus and at most in the perinatal period. This genetic-epigenetic imprint determines not only the sex, that is, gender belonging in anatomical and physiological terms, but also the gender identity, that is, the perception of gender and sexual orientation.
The awareness of sexuality, its models, the more or less repressed manifestations of sexuality over the years, and the consequences on an individual psychological level, are instead largely determined by that familiar and social interaction, which we can call "sexual education" and which is not limited to just a single part of life, but follows the evolution of the individual according to the progressing of age.
The fact that sexuality, understood in its most profound aspects, is closely connected with the affectivity induces to consider sex education as an integral part of affective education.
A concept, in the educational field, should never be forgotten: education acts on the basis of an individual biological genetic-epigenetic substratum but is also linked to the stages of development, to possible pathologies and many other factors. Education means to develop the potential of an individual "respecting first of all the biological identity". A good gardener knows that by placing an apple tree in the ideal conditions for the cultivation of an apricot tree, not only we will not be able to obtain apricots from the apple tree, but it will suffer a lot and may even die. Cultivating a tree means understanding first of all what tree it is and then providing it with the appropriate care for that specific tree. This is also true for people.
Let’s start from the family dimension, i.e. from emotional-sexual education inside the family.
The family is the first environment in which a child begins to build relationships. In order to begin to feel an affective gratification, the child must perceive the sense of acceptance and affectionate care from the parents. If the child is the subject of confrontation (unwanted children, doubtful parenthood, a child that has become an object of contention between parents and grandparents or between the parents themselves), he easily becomes aware that he’s not the center of family life and begins to experience the sensation of marginality and abandonment yet in tender age.
Perceiving the disagreement between the parents is inherently traumatic and transmits automatically, by imitation, a model of behavior that is not emotional but competitive, stimulates aggressiveness in one direction and sense of frustration in the other. The child also instinctively senses the discrepancy between words and behavior. Cuddling a child for a while and then leaving him alone in the walker or in front of the television not only causes a sense of abandonment but also provides an initial model of falsehood: "I love you so much, but you must keep calm and stay aside because I have other things to do!" The speech is basically inconsistent and false because it brings together declarations of affection and behaviors that show disinterest.
Often the frustrations of parents, their claiming attitudes, their blaming of this or that, their justifying only themselves, transmit to the child the feeling of unreliability of the parent who begins to be a faltering reference point. Nothing is worse than raising your voice to impose your point of view, and I don’t even want to talk about the possible physical violence in the family, which is experienced by the child in a devastating way: a father who tugs at his mother, who slaps her, a mother who plays hysterical scenes and screams at her husband, represent models that the child will certainly internalize, or by imitation or contrast, identifying, according to the situations, as an aggressive person or as a victim, and this will move the child away from the emotional contact, which is the true purpose of emotional education.
There are several other behaviors, apparently neutral, which transmit a sense of insecurity to the child:
1) A parent who speaks in the singular setting himself against the other ("I ... while your mother ...") . The use of “we/us” conveys the idea of affective family, harmony and solidarity.
2) To talk too often about money or about who brings home money, or about social hierarchies that don’t see parents at the same level.
3) To speak badly about other people the child knows.
4) To show that it is difficult or impossible to speak with the other parent, that he/she has defects, that doesn’t care for the family and, worse of the worst, doesn’t care for children.
The presence of parents in the life of young children, up to preadolescence, should be constant, affectionate, dialoguing and never abstractly normative.
A particular consideration must be given to managing family conflicts that may arise, and indeed inevitably arise in the family over the years. It can be the conflicts of the parents with other relatives, of between parents themselves and also of the conflicts between parents and children. The management of conflicts must always be discursive and shared, no form of violence, even verbal, can be admitted for no reason. Recognizing the other's reasons and seeking conciliation doesn’t indicate weakness but the exact opposite. The child must realize that the parent can see things in another way and you can talk to find a point of equilibrium without coming to breakage.
Affective education suffers a violent trauma when the parent-child relationship is dominated by the fear of the parent's violent reactions. Even worse is the idea that a parent invokes the presence of the other parent to induce fear in the children, such in the classic: "I'll tell your father!"
As one grows, one element takes on particular importance: confidence, which must be accompanied by confidentiality on the part of the parent. If a parent receives a confidence by the child, he must keep it for himself, if he doesn’t, he would induce the child to immediately interrupt the relationship of confidence with the parent that will anymore be resumed. Any attitude that shows the tendency of the parent to abandon himself to gossip, devalues him in the eyes of his son and reduces the possibilities for dialogue.
A general criterion must always be kept in mind: education operates through the example, not through words: children tend to assimilate and imitate parents' behavior, not to put into practice what parents say in words but don’t do themselves.
What has been said so far, as it is easy to understand, requires from parents a substantial affective maturity that too often is taken for granted, assuming that the parent is always substantially up to the task of education and that at most he needs a training aimed at the conscious rethinking of contents and methods of education. Sometimes however, and not very rarely, these assumptions don’t occur, in some cases because parents themselves have been in turn educated (assuming that this word can be used in these situations) with completely improper and substantially non-educational methods, and in other cases because one or both parents can be psychopathological subjects (for example paranoid or perverse narcissists). While in the first case it is possible with regard to the parent a concrete action (even if of long duration and with uncertain outcome) of reorientation or re-education of the adult, in the second case such action is essentially impossible and the parent-child educational relationship can turn into a framework of family violence and abuse, up to the most extreme consequences. It should be emphasized that violence and family abuse practiced by paranoid or perverse narcissists parents are often not visible on the outside and create very deep suffering in the children with unforeseeable consequences even in the long term.
Sex education of the child
Today, children are bombarded starting from an early age with images more or less erotic and very often begin to take an interest in sexuality in a very abstract way well before adolescence, so they assimilate, in a very tender age, banal visions of the sexuality as a "forbidden game". Pedagogues have often been concerned with how to convey to children a more correct concept of sexuality: typical is the model of the flower, the pollination and the fruit, but in this way there is the risk, for gays far from being indifferent, to provide only the concept of sexuality aimed at reproduction, this will also convey the concept of sexual role, of the boy and girl as society conceives them, and of typically male and typically female behavior, taking for natural and obvious cultural attitudes often very questionable.
Accustom a little girl to the idea that femininity involves high heels and makeup means distort the concept from the beginning, like to think that the boy should be interested necessarily in football and in certain types of games is in itself misleading. It is very easy to see that in a school class of children who are not yet pre-adolescent, boys tend to play "boyish" games with each other, and girls tend to play "girlish" games with each other and this is the result of an education for sexual roles, how society understands them, starting from an early age.
The child before puberty sometimes shows an embryonal hetero affectivity, which involves interest in being with little girls, talking with them, playing with them, or an embryonal gay affectivity, which involves interest in being with other boys, talking to them and playing with them. These behaviors are the first manifestations of sexual orientation, they are not yet conscious, but they are elements on which we should reflect a lot and to which we should pay the utmost attention, but, I must say very clearly, never a repressive attention. I would like to point out that the transmission of role models deforms and often stifles these spontaneous tendencies altogether and tends to let the tendency towards homologation prevail, based on the fear of marginality within the peer group.
In the memory of many gays, the recollection of the first affectionate friendships with other boys and often the worried attitudes of the parents in front of such manifestations remains well imprinted. We are talking about friendships between children, not yet pre-adolescent who, if not totally conditioned by education, begin to show signs of homo-affinity or hetero-affectivity.
Parents, who often lack a broader horizon on sexuality, consider themselves as the only possible model for the sexuality of their children. The idea that children are not and cannot be a photocopy of parents is still struggling to get accepted. It is precisely for this reason that some children's behaviors alarm parents and trigger a short communication circuit that ends up disrupting trust and establishing suspicious attitudes.
The child who plays with dolls or puts on his mother's high heels or wig or dresses up as a woman generally raises questions in the parents, and this happens even more strongly if two children develop a very close friendship. Apart from the fact that these are completely different phenomena, because the first refers to gender identity and the second to sexual orientation, it is very probable that the child experiences in these situations the concern of the parent that manifests itself through limitations, prohibitions or simple removals.
The basic criterion of a good sex education is to promote the spontaneous development of affectivity and sexuality, avoiding a repressive sanctioning behaviors. The parent facing behaviors that are not what he would have expected believes that it is his duty to "correct", to "guide" the child's behavior, to "defend" him from dangerous influences, this attitude, which is perfectly understandable, is acceptable , positive and necessary, if "to correct " means to demonstrate by example how one can have affection and respect for friends, without demanding too much and without running away from one's duties towards those friends, if "to drive " means to explain, to make the child understand the meaning of affective relationships even in adult life, for example by receiving friends cordially and affectionately, if "defending" from dangerous influences means to accustom children not to trivialize, not to exploit friendship, to take it seriously and to respond adequately when the need arises, but "to correct" means for many parents only to repress, "to drive" means to remove freedom and "to defend” means to segregate.
I would like to stress that the signs of homo-affectivity are generally very precocious and repressing them means inducing the guilt and submission of the child who begins to consider himself wrong. The repression of infantile homo-affectivity sometimes manifests itself explicitly, and sometimes through a systematic attempt to remove the child from contexts in which that homo-affectivity tends to manifest: if the child has developed a strong friendship towards another child or even towards a boy a little older during the summer holidays at the sea, the next year instead of going to the sea the family will go to the mountains.
A very delicate subject in this area is the prevention of sexual violence and abuse. Clearly, the child's segregation reaches the goal but at the cost of a total repression of the individual freedom. The real problem lies in avoiding the risks (which are not only fancy) leaving the child a freedom commensurate with his age. Leaving a child (under 12-13 years ) alone for the whole day together with his playmates exposes him to objective dangers, which he may not realize. But if sexual abuses perpetrated by external pedophile subjects are generally the most feared, experience teaches that abuses are practiced only exceptionally by strangers and for the most part they rise from a family environment. Parking children by relatives or friends from morning to night means abandoning them to situations that can be objectively risky.
Before 12-13 years it is good that the child finds its spaces for the most part with the presence of the parents: the parents speak in the living room, the children play in the next room. Parents in this way give their children an example of socializing and leave them freedom spaces according to their age.
Beyond the age of 12-13, the risk of abuse doesn’t cease because abuse can also be committed toward adolescents or preadolescents both by family members and by educators, priests or teachers, especially in contexts where the minor cohabits with other peers for education or care purposes. Particular attention should be dedicated to the education of responsible use of the web for the risks of priming to which minors are exposed on the net. It is important to be vigilant in order to catch any signs of disturbance, alarm or exaltation in children, talk to them about it, if it is possible, and contact the postal department or the local Police Office to receive assistance when faced with dangerous situations. Obviously, the best prevention of priming risks on the net is realized right through risk awareness, the habit of always thinking before acting, and the habit of protecting one’s own privacy and that of others, and on these aspects education has a decisive influence.
When a child manifests the first forms of curiosity in relation to sexuality, it should be taken seriously, avoiding trivializing and manifesting evasive attitudes. It is essential that sexuality is never detached from its affective implications and is not reduced exclusively to procreative purposes. The child must become familiar with the idea of a sexuality that is not a forbidden game but a manifestation of affection for another person. Many parents never show explicit emotional behaviors in front of their children, for example, the father and mother don’t hug each other in front of children and avoid any physical act with each other, even the simple caresses, others instead let themselves go to forms of more or less sexual play in front of their children who in this way feel themselves excluded from the relationship with their parents. Of course
It’s necessary to find a balance between these opposing attitudes: the spontaneous caresses and affections between parents, the cuddles, which end up with the involvement of the children in the affection of the parents themselves are extremely positive in stabilizing the mood and in developing a harmonious character in the children. The double bed must become a non-exclusive environment, reserved for the parents only, but must be an environment in which children can also be admitted. The physical contact with parents, commensurate with the age of children, must lead to the idea of the affectionate embrace between adults, which expresses participation and sympathy.
Let’s come now to one of the key points of the speech: how to deal with the issue of homosexuality. The parent who is explicitly dealing such an argument with the child for the first time, must never forget that if one takes for granted that one's son is hetero, in 8 cases out of 100 he is mistaken. Sending positive messages about homosexuality certainly doesn’t induce heterosexuals to become homosexuals, but can help homosexuals to grow accepting without complexes their homosexuality. Many parents believe that the specifically sexual education of children is not up to parents and should be delegated to school, church, doctors and other educational agencies, as if sexuality were an object of study or a question of faith or health protection. Obviously all these aspects are not foreign to sexuality, which, however, is a very complex reality that cannot be considered only under sectoral perspectives.
Sexuality is a component of the ordinary life of all of us and one of the essential contents of a serious educational relationship. I have been dealing with homosexuals for many years and I have often seen gay adult men, still deeply conditioned by the conflicting relationships with parents due to homosexuality. The vast majority of homosexuals not publicly declared, speak about their own homosexuality just with a few trustworthy friends, while those who talk about it openly in the family are very rare, perhaps today less than ten years ago, but it is still a narrow minority. For a gay boy, talking to his parents and finding their respect and their affection even in an atmosphere of clarity is absolutely essential and stabilizing. On the other hand, misunderstanding and rejection leave deep traces and greatly complicate the achievement of true autonomy on the part of the children.
I add a fundamental thing: a gay boy who feels accepted within the family will not need to go and look for other environments in which to find understanding and tends to develop his affective life without hiding and for this reason objectively also running much less risks. When a gay guy presents his boyfriend to his parents (what was once unthinkable and now becomes more and more possible) he realizes at 100% the dimension of the normality of his affectivity-sexuality. Surprised, reticent, perplexed or hostile attitudes of parents severely undermine their children's self-esteem and create often irreparable fractures.
I would like to touch on a very delicate last subject. Sometimes the boys who grow up, whether they are heterosexual or gay, find themselves instinctively experiencing drives that alarm them, classics are examples of sexual fantasies about much older people, pedophile fantasies, sadistic or masochistic fantasies and erotic drives addressed within their own family. It is objectively very difficult that topics of this kind enter explicitly in speeches between parents and children regarding sexuality, because if the fear of negative reactions to homosexuality is already strong, the fear of negative reactions to those contents can be much more alarming. The issue of pedophilia can be responsibly tackled by highlighting the very serious objective damage that those behaviors can cause but stressing nevertheless the fact that those tendencies can exist even in very good people who would never put them into practice. If there is an attitude that a parent must show in front of such things, it can only be to clearly distinguish the fantasies that one cannot control, from the actions that can and must be taken under control. A similar argument can be used also regarding sadistic and incestuous fantasies.
With regard to intergenerational relationships it is necessary to avoid confusing them with larval forms of pedophilia, because intergenerational relationships are relationships between consenting adults even if of very different ages.
A correct attitude in the face of all these things helps people feel understood and accepted and enhances their morality and their capacity for discernment and this is the basic premise to accept themselves and to be able to self-control. It should be emphasized, however, that pedophile fantasies, of which people almost never speak in a scientifically correct way, are a reality very complex and difficult to manage. In many cases these fantasies are found in adults who have in turn been victims of violence or sexual abuse. It should be clarified that, although fantasies and actions are distinct things, it happens that fantasies are or may be prodromal to actual or possible behaviors, which, even if only considered merely as hypotheses, can cause levels of profound suffering.
Slipping from fantasies to pedophile behaviors can sometimes become easy and almost obvious. The sex tourism, for example, can lead the adult to look for more and more young partners of one or the other sex, producing a slow but effective slip towards pedophilia. The use of Internet child pornography should be considered as a sign strongly indicative of a dangerous corroboration of fantasies, prodromal to possible pedophile behaviors. According to what I learn from people who experience pedophile fantasies I’m led to believe that slipping into occasional pedophile behaviors, which can be the origin of recurring pedophile phantasies, also of obsessive types, is certainly possible even for people who have never had previously this kind of fantasies.
A person who experienced this kind of fantasies told me: "I had never had such fantasies before, then it happened to me an experience in which it would have been easy to come to the action, but it didn’t happen, but taking a step without return would have been very easy. And since then, such fantasies remained strongly stamped in my mind. I don’t like them, that somehow compromised my sexuality for years because I think that I wouldn’t even talk about such things with my partner, because he would react badly."
I will not analyze here the possible compulsive aspects of pedophilia but because many men who have pedophilic fantasies are aware of it and are afraid of being able to practice pedophile behavior, in some countries (in Germany, in England and in the US) there are support services who deal with prevention by providing specialized psychological support to those who request it because they experience pedophile tendencies.
At the general educational level there is still an ancestral fear towards psychologists and psychiatrists that should be eliminated, leading people to understand that they are health workers who can provide psychological and even pharmacological support if necessary. Prevention education, which deserves a detailed examination, is not only carried out in providing information on sexually transmitted diseases, but also in the prevention of other risky behaviors for oneself and for others such as pedophile ones.
Certainly less sensitive are the themes related to the couple's relationship structure: monogamy, indissolubility, socialization and formalization of the couple's relationship, relationship between friendship and love. Insisting on the legitimacy of a single behavioral model collides with the reality of affective life which is often not monogamous, not unbreakable neither reducible to structure. The meaning of the couple relationship is usually assimilated by imitation already in childhood and, according to the general rule, is transmitted through the behavior of adults and not through their speeches. The relational aspect of sexuality should never be overlooked, according to this relational aspect the fundamental satisfaction in a sexual relationship derives from the realization that our partner is really involved and is in turn gratified by the relationship. Needless to say, these must be relationships that are actually wanted consciously and freely by both partners.
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