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A GUY MEETS HIS FORMER BO...
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END OF A GAY COUPLE
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GAY SEX AND DEPRESSION
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COOLING OF A GAY COUPLE A...
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| FALLING IN LOVE WITH A MARRIED MAN |
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Posted by: gayprojectforum - 09-27-2018, 12:05 PM - Forum: True gay stories
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Hi Project, I've been reading your sites for a long time and they've helped me a lot. My name is Maurice, I am 26 years old and I think I have a lot of problems related to the sphere of sex. I make a seemingly normal life, I recently graduated and I also found a job, I know very well that these days it is very difficult and I was lucky and I do a job that I like. Since I started working I no longer live in the house of my parents and with a little money that they lent me I bought a little cottage in the country, very close to the place where I work, and I live there alone for ten months now.
Loneliness is not a burden to me, I leave the house at six in the morning and go back after seven in the evening, lunch and dinner in the canteen, I don’t cook. I have internet and from eight in the evening I surf the net. I basically discovered your sites when I went to live alone. I had thought almost immediately that I would have liked to talk a little with you, but then it seemed an embarrassing thing and I put aside the idea. Reading the forum I found many things that made my ideas a little clearer, every time I read something that interested me directly I told myself that I should write to you and in the end I did it.
It may seem strange to you, but I've never been able to talk seriously with anyone about things related to sexuality. At home, this subject has always been a taboo, but not just about gays but even about sexuality in general. I've never had friends, rather acquaintances, but they were certainly not guys with whom I could talk about sexual things. Until the age of 21 I didn’t have internet, I heard someone talking about what could be found on the net but they seemed to me dirty things, for depraved people, and so I put aside the problem even though I knew long since that I was gay, let's say I considered it as a negative thing that had happened to me, that I had to keep for myself only, a kind of pathological corner to which I was allowed to dedicate only in moments of self-eroticism and also with great feelings of guilt.
In practice, up to 21 years I have always tried to repress my homosexuality through study, but of course what you are comes out anyway but, let's say, I didn’t accept myself in the full sense of the term. So up to the age of 21 I tried to deny myself that I was gay even if I lived those things through masturbation, that attracted me and at the same time created me a lot of complexes, as if in practice I was destroying the best part of me to make room for the gay part, now I know it's absurd but at that time I reasoned like that.
At 21, things changed, I had my first computer connected to the internet and I became sex-addicted, in practice I spent the nights to see photos and porn videos and even here there was an evolution, at the beginning anxiety and guilt, then I got wild but over time the interest started going down. In the early days I felt very excited to think that I had to switch on the computer to see porn, then, in the course of a couple of years, things have changed to the point that in practice the videos don’t make me any effect anymore, and in any case I saw a lot less videos and I had become very much selective, I could be interested in at most two or three out of a hundred.
Then there was the chat phase, let's say it started when I was 22, a bit like with porn videos, at first a huge curiosity, but here it was different, I had to expose myself but I didn’t want to do it. The very first experiences were squalid, obscene proposals and that's it, but I didn’t give up and I finally met Steven who didn’t do like everyone else (I had tried in the chat at least thirty times!), He told me a lot of good things that I liked and liked a lot.
After several weeks of long conversations day and night, since he didn’t make any proposal as did everyone else, I tried in my turn and asked him to go on cam but he didn’t want. Such a thing displaced me, I didn’t understand why, I thought he was cheating me but I couldn’t understand the meaning of such a behavior, because if he wanted to take advantage of the situation he would have to go to the point, and instead it didn’t happen, the more time passed the less he talked about sex and then he didn’t really have anything that could push me to suspect something strange.
I insisted several times to induce him to show up on cam but he never did. After about six months that we knew each other, he disappeared at all and I didn’t hear from him anymore. I have not the faintest idea of why, I thought about all possible hypotheses, that he was an old man, even though he had told me he was 24, maybe he was a married guy or a priest or maybe a guy with handicap problems. The story of Steven has upset me a lot, maybe I would have fallen in love with him. Even now, sometimes I read the text messages and the conversations with Steven and I’m struck by the level of the conversation that had nothing of the classic erotic chat dialogue. At the time of the chat with Steven, which lasted more than six months, I had not looked for anyone else, but then I started again.
Shortly after my 23-th birthday, after a lot of squalid things, I met a guy from Alexandria, let's call him Mark, he was not of Steven's level, but he seemed like a good guy and didn’t live too far from the house of my parents, I lived with them at that time. With Mark we got to the concrete proposals, it was also all in all a nice guy, or at least passable, I lost a lot of time trying to convince me that with him something could have been born but for me he was not really sexually attractive, let's say that since I saw him on cam I stopped masturbating thinking about him!
What should I have done? I should have told the truth, I know very well, but I didn’t do anything like that, I was afraid he would go away, I was fine with him if it was about talking, in a sense he was a friend but for him it was impossible stop there. He insisted and I escaped, I was looking for excuses, I went on like this, holding him on the rope for a couple of months, he finally made me an aut aut and told me: "If you are not interested in me you must tell me it" but I don’t have had the face to say things as they were and we have arranged an appointment. We met one afternoon, we had to go to a small house of his in the countryside near Alexandria. He, seen in person didn’t attract me at all, I told him that I didn’t feel like it, he tried to insist but I turned and I started running, I just ran away in the most shameful way, he didn’t even try to follow me. At home I saw that he had blocked me on msn.
This was my most engaging adventure with a guy, at least until recently. Now you understand what contacts I've had with gay guys. After the story of Mark I thought everything, I asked myself if I was gay, if I was a pathological case, if it could be the case to try with a girl, but for me this is an absolutely unknown planet and then such things never went through my head. At this point of my life I’m in total confusion also because something happened to me that I never imagined.
Five months ago, a 27-year-old guy came to work with me in, let's call him Andrew, who is exactly the embodiment of my ideal of man, I think I have never seen a more beautiful guy, for a smile of his I would give my soul, he has a voice so sweet that it upsets my guts, I also have the opportunity to talk with him and when it happens I feel in heaven. Andrew is the real reason why I am writing to you, Project, because he is really upsetting my life, I would do crazy things for him, I started to explore a bit the ground, maybe it's early to say, but I have the impression that he is interested in me, looking for me, smiling at me, he treats me in a loving way, but there is a huge problem, Andrew is married for 5 years now and also has a child.
In our conversations he never told me it and where I work nobody knows it but I came to known it from unofficial sources, in practice from people who know him well. If Andrew was 100% hetero I would end up removing him from my head. There are many beautiful guys and he would be one of the many who have nothing to do with me, but I think Andrew is not really hetero, it's not something I hope, it's something that I think on the base of many elements that himself has provided me and that I believe he has provided me those elements because of a good reason.
Project, try to understand, I'm not fantasizing, I have the very clear impression that Andrew is trying to tell me this in all the moments when we are together, he cannot but he is trying and I feel myself in great difficulty, the main reason is not that I can fall in love with him, what anyhow scares me, but rather the fact that he can fall in love with me. Even at the cost of breaking my heart, I could always drive back, but if he loses his head where are we going to end up?
Andrea is not a chat user but he is a married man, according to what I think, he is a gay married man who is desperately lonely and is trying to build something with me and I don’t know what to do, I’m afraid of these things, I don’t know how I would react in front of a similar situation and I don’t know where to start from. Project, let's say that of what I said I'm 98% sure and I think that I’ll get soon to an explicit talk with Andrew but I fear that he too can be split in two. But why does a married guy with a child completely avoid any mention of his family? It should be a beautiful thing and instead he never talks about it with anyone. Of the fact that he is married and has a son, I am absolutely sure.
I wonder if it is morally honest for me to keep him away from his family, to hear him, and maybe offer him a chance to throw out everything he carries inside. For me it is a very important person and I tell you that I’m thinking of him from morning to night, but I would also accept not to see him any more so as not to ruin his life, but he looks for me and I have the impression that I’m also an important presence for him. Here I arrived at the end of the story. Project, please, take it for granted that Andrew is not straight, or at least he is not 100% straight, and tell me what you would do. I need a serious comparison.
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| A MARRIED GAY GUY WHO HAS NOT REPENTED |
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Posted by: gayprojectforum - 09-27-2018, 08:31 AM - Forum: Gay orientation
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Greetings to all, "I have not just registered in the forum", I was undecided whether to introduce myself, partly because I don’t know if my story will be useful for the discussion. My not being repentant for the choices made could mislead some who are looking for their identity.
I immediately say that I have a certain age, I am married and with children, but since adolescence I have always had fantasies and even homosexual practices. But I made a choice of life that I don’t want to question now. The fact that I have read many of the interventions of this forum, which I judge serious and above all commendable in protecting the privacy of users, also highlights that I still have an interest in these issues and my for fear of not being completely in peace with myself.
I think I have an ideal family life, a wife who loves me and children I'm proud of. All this, however, has been achieved without my having ever been able to distract myself from my drives which are clearly in the homosexual sense. Even after the wedding I had some falls, I considered them "betrayals", yes serious, but in my opinion not very different from those of straight people. I don’t know whether to consider myself a true homosexual, but the more I analyze my life and the more I believe to be gay. But I also think with different attitudes from experiences of others.
I never thought of being able to share the couple life with a man and I was mostly driven by sexual attraction, I don’t know if I "fell in love" with another guy, perhaps at a young age, perhaps with attentions directed towards those who could not create a relationship with me, inside me however the thing has always been confused. What is certain is that I have always refused to recognize him and have tried to live a seemingly normal hetero life. In short, my homosexuality is the one that is called dystonic homosexuality.
You have to consider that on me the religious element has had a decisive influence. I have understood from various interventions that this is normally considered negative. But faith for me is an irrepressible fact, full of doubts and contradictions, but I cannot and don’t want to eliminate it from my life. I never said anything to my wife. I realize that complete sincerity in a relationship is essential but I have never succeeded, perhaps at the beginning I made some attempts, but exactly as I read in some posts of the forum, often this by the partner of the other sex is not understood or the partner doesn’t even want to consider it.
Now, after a long time, for the great affection that I have towards my wife, never, never I could have let her be aware of a situation that she surely couldn't have understood. I try to accept myself this way, maybe I have not been completely honest, but sometimes other priorities are included in the scale of priorities. The textbook on homosexuality has greatly struck me positively, especially when the topic of married gays is dealt with. I think I have found a balance as indicated in the first option, that is with fantasies and, sometimes, with porn sites that I’m a bit ashamed of but nevertheless I consider the lesser evil.
I feel fragile and willing to give in to temptation but I resign myself to what I’m. I understand that maybe my experience cannot be taken as an example, I may have managed to realize myself in a way that can be judged not appropriate to the full acceptance of how we are but, as I have repeatedly heard, every case is separate and I frankly I cannot repent of my family choice. Perhaps today with the most widespread and above all clearer and more scientific means of information on this topic, I would have done differently, but it went like this and no verification of other hypotheses is anymore possible. Hello everyone with my most sincere sympathy.
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| STORY OF A MARRIED GAY GUY |
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Posted by: gayprojectforum - 09-25-2018, 06:25 PM - Forum: True gay stories
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Hello Project, now it is so much that I don’t write to you. With my wife we talked and we decided to separate. Now we are still at home together for logistical reasons and it is not easy, but I imagine that slowly everything can improve. The guy of the message I have not heard him for months and I cannot deny that I miss him, but slowly this will pass too. On my orientation I sincerely stopped asking questions and giving me labels. I decided to live with sincerity and that's it, without giving me a thousand problems. I also managed to talk with my male best friend and with my female best friend, with my sisters and especially with my parents. I was afraid that they wouldn’t understand, in fact I was convinced of it, but it happened the exact opposite, they understood me and they are close to me. This helped me a lot. My father's answer was "Certainly I’m old, but in 2017 it's no longer strange". I and my sister were more shocked by his reaction than he was by me. He has always been one of closed mind (at least apparently). Now I'm just trying to find a balance in my life even if I have swung for months between moments of contentment and serenity and moments of confusion and sadness. I also write to you because I wanted to add my experience to the forum by telling my life, but before inserting the post I wanted you to read it and tell me your opinion. Below you find the text (I know it's very long, but it's a life to tell and there are many themes). Bye! And thanks.
Hello everyone, first of all I congratulate you for the forum, which I have been following for many months and that I continue to follow, reading texts, reflections and comments, and I thank Project for its advices. All those testimonies have helped me in this period not exactly easy. I have tried many times to write my story to give some help to someone else with my experience and above all to receive help or advice, but I have always been afraid and uncertain about what to write.
I'm a 29 year old guy, not exactly a teenager. I state that I understand that I have always had a strong internalized homophobia, probably acquired by a loving and affectionate grandmother who was completely against the gay world and by a father who joked about it with friends. I was a child and certain phrases that, with today's head, I would understand that they must be contextualized and understood in a completely different way, they had marked me. I don’t know if it was because of these phrases or whatever else, but I have always seen the fact of being homosexual as something perverse and sick, I don’t say as pedophilia but almost.
I remember that as a young child I had "different" thoughts but I had confirmation of being different at 14 when I fell in love for the first time with a guy. Obviously it was an unrequited and unilateral love, because he was straight. All this made me suffer, not only because of the unrequited love, but because it was something I absolutely didn’t want and I tried to deny inside myself, hiding and lying to myself telling myself that he was just a friend. My dream since childhood was to have a family and children. The children were my biggest dream. As far as I was concerned, in addition to emotional involvement, I was also attracted toward this guy, sometimes it was enough to stay close to him to get an erection, but I couldn’t avoid to want him and it was impossible for me to take him out of my head, and all the story made me ashamed to death.
At that time I don’t sincerely remember masturbation in which direction it went, even if remembering it would be useful to understand things better. I also remember that at that time when I was interested in a guy I tried to "translate" the feelings I was feeling, directing them to girls, trying to convince myself that I felt those feelings for girls. I don’t know why I did it, but I was convinced that it was right. It was a period when I felt wrong and suffered.
I remember trying to change my gestures to look as masculine as possible, even if I still maintain a slightly effeminate attitude. I didn’t do sports or anything that led me to enter a male locker room because I was very ashamed to see naked guys, I found myself looking at them and wanting them. I tried to do everything to look as normal as possible and the fact that I had a good appearance helped me because I was always surrounded by beautiful girls, many of which followed me, while for me they were only friends. Still, I find myself better with girls and I have more male than female friends, with guys I have more difficulty in tying. I also tried approaches for a while with some girls, but without having any emotional or physical interest.
At one point she came, the girl who later became my wife. She had a great love for me and I found in her the emotional tranquility that comforted me and made me feel normal. For me she became a point of reference and I was completely carried away by her love. I somehow love her and I still care for her today, but knowing that there was something wrong with me, I was able to see it as something external, not mine, to such an extent that I had finally come to think of being "healed", or better, not even "healed", that there had simply never been anything strange within me. Sex worked (maybe), even though I never looked for it and it had never impressed me. Sometimes I fell into periods of sadness and silence because something came out and I closed in myself knowing that with a little time the malaise would have passed and everything would be back as before. And my poor wife was always trying to understand something that is quite incomprehensible even for me and even now.
Masturbation had become a necessity, I devoted myself to it in a mechanical way and always watching porn, straight porn, of course, watching a gay one was something unthinkable for me. Sometimes I looked at them to convince me and confirm that I was not interested. But in the hetero movies I looked at the man and in my mind I had the greatest pleasure in oral sex, with the desire, not only that it was done on me, but that I was to do it to him, and then I used to identify myself in the actress. I know, it's absurd if I think about it, but in that way I felt normal and above all not guilty. Probably I'm the only one in the world to have certain quirks. My life has gone on like this, I have filled my life with things to do without stopping, I guess just only in order to avoid having time to stop and think.
I really believed it was all normal like that. After all I was not serene but somehow I was happy, I had a perfect life. With my wife we grew up together, we respected each other and we always did everything together, traveled, learned languages and supported each other in difficult times. So I decided to get married and give her that much-desired wedding. I tried to give her a dream wedding, I had committed to this purpose with all my heart. Although it was a mistake it was a day when we were really happy, it has been still the best day of my life and when I made the decision, for me, that problem that I had inside didn’t exist anymore.
Until "he" arrived. I was in church, that same church that so often comforted me in the most difficult moments. He was in front of me. I couldn’t look at him and the absurd thing is that every now and then I caught him while looking at me and seeing that I was looking at him, he looked away, almost ashamed. I told myself it was strange. He was not handsome, but his dark eyes, his naive look of teddy bear (so I called him), big and tender, attracted me. Then someone told him he had to move and put himself next to me. We had a chat and he was also nice and intelligent. There were so many things in common to talk about. After the course, I ran away, I left without too many words.
I didn’t see him for a while until one day I saw him in a group. We had to take a group photo and he took my hand to make me get close to him, a gesture that any friend would do, but that contact pleased me terribly, after the end of the photo service I quickly left, full of shame.
The following days I was continuously thinking of that guy. I couldn’t get it out of my head. I cried, I don’t know exactly why. Then one day I had to ask him for some information and he gave me his phone number. He looked at me in a strange way, mixed with contentment and shame. I felt that he could also feel my own feelings, but I avoided thinking about it. But I didn’t understand exactly and I repeated to myself that it was all in my mind. I called him for that information, but the chat lasted two hours. It was really nice to talk to him and I saw that it was like that for him too.
In the following days we got newly in contact and we manage to talk for hours with pleasure, without stopping. We began to be in contact more often also with messages. I realized that I was more and more of me interested in him, but as usual inside me I told myself that I had found a good friend only. Until one day I went to his house to meet him. I had to stay there no more than half an hour, but he had to go for an errand and insisted that I wait for him at all costs, and so I waited for him. Then we talked again about our studies, our travels and our passions. He seemed happy to see me and be with me. I certainly was.
The next day I had to go abroad for work and I needed a helping hand, we had talked in the morning and I had also told him about my trip and he came abroad with me to give me a hand. During the whole trip we talked and the speeches about gays and in particular about gays who attend the church came out. I suspected he was gay and I asked him it without too many preambles, stressing that it was just out of curiosity.
He asks me in turn the same question and I answer him "straight" but I talk to him about my doubts and tell him that maybe I can call myself bisexual (it was the first time in my life that I was talking to someone about such things, and it was something that I didn’t even want to talk about with myself). He replies that he too was bisexual. So we began to talk about our doubts and feelings experienced in the past. It was the first time that I really asked myself questions and talked about them aloud.
From him I learn that he had begun to accept himself two years earlier, at the age of 30. I also tell him of the feelings I felt towards him (I had no ulterior motive, it was only out of sincerity). He tells me that for him it was the same, I was happy but confused, I didn’t expect it. Then with a tender and shameful look he puts his hand on mine. He had a sweet firm touch, I felt uncomfortable, but I loved that contact terribly. I felt afraid and guilty. Then he made a simple gesture but I remember it with great pleasure. It was hot and he was worried about me, he took off my hat, and so I could see he was worried about me. This thing filled my heart. We spent the day together, looking at the view of the city and then we stopped for a drink and he clumsily tried to kiss me.
I was shocked. I pushed him away saying I was married. I read in his look that he was ashamed. He apologized. All this made me so tender, I too wanted the kiss, but I couldn’t let me go. I was afraid of myself, of the situation, and the sense of guilt grew inside me just thinking about it. I shook his hand, saying to forgive me, but I wanted nothing more than a friend. The following days we continued to stay in touch, more and more and we took every opportunity to see each other. We did nothing but talk. It was so pleasant. But I felt that feeling grew stronger and stronger inside me. Then one day he writes me by message, a simple "I love you", and I think I was the happiest person in the world. I was ashamed to answer him and sent him a song. From there followed messages and songs, which until that day didn’t make sense, then suddenly took deep meanings that I could finally understand.
We talked about everything, our secrets and the deepest fears. We opened up with each other a lot, until one day he wrote to me "I love you, but maybe even a little more". I would have cried from the myriad feelings and thoughts that passed through my heart and mind. I was really confused, but now I realized that I loved him and for the first time in my life I was reciprocated. I was not alone. And the only thing I thought was: how is it possible that such a strong and beautiful feeling is wrong? Then he had to leave for a trip and we met to say goodbye. I was married and I had no intention of doing anything wrong anyway. So we talked and hugged before saying goodbye. I was so happy in his arms. Then he looked me in the eyes, those eyes that I dreamed of so much, and I found myself with my face closer to his, I felt terribly ashamed. I literally ran away greeting him.
During his two-week trip we were in touch every day, every moment we could. We were also joking about sex, but always for fun. Then he returned from vacation; that night, by coincidence, I had to go out and we met on a Roman bridge. He told me about the trip and all the good things he had seen. It was cold and so, he, big and tender, hugged me to warm me up. It was so sweet and I was so happy, I felt protected for the first time in my life, I wanted that embrace never to end. I looked at him and asked him sadly why God says that such a beautiful thing it's wrong. I've always seen gay love as something vulgar and carnal. Instead it had everything but vulgarity. And that's how I found myself kissing him. But it wasn’t a kiss like all those I had given until that day. I felt my heart beating wildly, a desire that pervaded my whole body. It had never happened to me in my life.
We stayed hugged a little more on that bridge in the dark, watching the moon and the stars, over the incessant noise of the river. It was cold but for the first time in my life I felt really warm. I went home and thought about him all night and the following day.
Oh, what I had done! I had cheated on my wife and with a man. But it had been beautiful. I talked to him and he had the same guilt feelings, he was not married, but it was as if he were. Stupidly we were convinced that perhaps God had given us the opportunity to love each other without ruining our hetero duties (what a stupidity, if I think back!). But at that moment it was enough for me to get rid of guilt and to be with him. We continued as friends in front of others and any excuse was good to steal a kiss or a hug or even just a caress, until one day we found ourselves making love. It was not as vulgar as in porn movies, it was love, it was a mutual pleasure. I cannot get out of my mind his way of looking at me. I miss that tender teddy bear look. Then, afterwards, we fell asleep in each others arms. That hug is the most beautiful memory I carry with me.
After that episode we joined even more, I worried about him and he worried about me, we were very considerate of everything. We dreamed of impossible journeys and a life together, one in the shadow of the other. We imagined our old age in front of a fireplace, hand in hand. All this until one day an event happened (of which I prefer not to speak) that led him to feel guilty. I was married, and he too was as if he were. So the sense of guilt began to grow in us. We understood that everything we were doing was wrong. So he began to cry and I felt guilty about everything, about my wife and about him. I was a rag. I wanted to detach myself but I couldn’t. All this without being able to talk to anyone and trying to appear cheerful and sunny as usual in the eyes of people.
But I saw that he was moving further away from me. I told myself it was right this way, but the more I saw him get away, the more I died inside and looked for him. Until one day I felt him far away and asked him if it was over, he said yes, that it was better that way. I think the world around me stopped making noise at that moment. I told him "it's ok", after all it was right that way. For a week I couldn’t stop crying. I was newly alone and aware that something inside me was different, was gay.
So in that week I asked him if we could meet again. I wanted at least him to say it to me in my face not on the phone. We met. He was calm now. I didn’t understand how it was possible. So, when I got back to work, I wrote to him if he had another guy. He told me that he didn’t know how to tell me it and that he was sorry, but he had met a guy two weeks before and that with me he had confused the initial interest with love. At that moment it was like receiving a punch in the stomach, the world collapsed under my feet. I felt destroyed, I found myself losing the most beautiful thing in my life for another guy, I found myself aware that that a part of me so repressed existed and that made me really happy, and I also felt guilt for what I had done to my wife. All this in a fake straight life that made me feel in prison.
At that time I began to wonder if I could really be gay or bisexual. This thought stressed me more and more. I began to lose weight and close myself up like a hedgehog. Seeing any person made me uncomfortable. I was ashamed of myself. Sometimes I got to the point of feeling repulsion for myself. Finally I accept that part of me exists and I talk about it with my wife. That's where I met the forum and talked to Project.
My wife helped me to understand, she thought it was a period of depression, but when she realized that this part of me exists, she went through a period of rage. But then she realized that it was simply so. On the one hand she was sad and disappointed, but on the other she was relieved because she had given herself so many faults and she thought that there was something wrong with her but now she understood that the problem was not her but was I, and she kept telling me: if you're gay now everything is clear to me.
At first I thought being gay was only a small part of personality, but over time I saw my awareness grow up and, asking myself questions and reasoning on it, now I understand many things that I didn’t understand before. Now I'm aware that bisexual I’m for sure, and maybe gay. My wife says it's clear, I've never looked at any girl, I've never looked for her to make love. I prefer a book or something else to her, she repeats that if I'm bisexual it's just because she's there. But there she was and I never had problems in making love. So a part of me is straight. At least I hope, I don’t want to believe that I really hid behind my wife. However now I stopped wanting to give myself a label. Now I just want to rediscover my serenity and really live, since until now I let myself be carried away by what was right for society. I know that from that day I rediscovered masturbation mostly without watching porn movies and all centered on that much desired guy and I also started to watch gay porn movies that give me satisfaction after all, even if I prefer the parts with oral sex or those "romantic", Some films, however, don’t like them because they are too "hard".
Now four months have passed since we said goodbye with that guy and yet I still miss him so much. For what concerns my wife I realized that she deserves a person who really loves her and really wants her. I tried to talk to her sincerely and stay close to her for what I can. It's hard to leave her because I love her deeply and she has been a fixed point in my life. And the sense of guilt does not help. But it's the right thing. On the advice of my psychologist I have been able to talk about myself with my two best friends and with my family. After that I spoke with my parents I felt an incredible sense of liberation, especially because they didn’t take it badly although I had thought exactly the opposite. On the contrary they speak as if they had always known or suspected it. They support me, worried perhaps also of my weight loss and of my sadness and loneliness that I have been carrying with me for months. Sorry if I was verbose, but summarize a life in a few lines is almost impossible.
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| CRITICAL POINTS OF THE PATH OF A GAY GUY TOWARDS HETEROSEXUAL MARRIAGE |
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Posted by: gayprojectforum - 09-24-2018, 07:46 PM - Forum: Gay orientation
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I noticed that the statistical sites show the constant presence of readers who get to Gay Project, through the Google search engine, using keys like: ”married gays”. The problem exists and it is not statistically irrelevant as usually believed.
I try to summarize here some of the fundamental elements that emerged from the Gay Project experience with regard to married gays. Among the absolutely fundamental elements in determining the path that leads gay guys to marriage, we must remember:
1) The idea that being gay is a "choice" that is somehow modifiable or a "vice" that can be prevented or corrected.
2) The idea that sexuality is a marginal reality that, for a heterosexual, must be exclusively instrumental to the creation of a family and procreation and, for a gay guy, must in any case be sacrificed in the name of the family and children.
3) The idea that a gay guy can be fully realized, that is can be realzed at the family level, because the true realization is only that, exclusively through the denial of his sexuality and that this denial will be, after all, painless because compensated by the family affection. In essence, the instinctive affectivity, connected with sexuality, is radically denied in this way. Cardinal Lajolo, in an interview in March 2014, declared, as if it were obvious, that "Gay marriages cannot fail to disappoint those who make them", in reality, if we consider the constant decrease in the propensity to marriage, the exponential increase in "femicides" and the constantly increasing percentages of divorces and separations (in Italy 50% of marriages end up in divorce or separation), what emerges is the substantial separation of society from the Catholic model of marriage and family.
4) Proposing to a young heterosexual the traditional family as a condition of happiness means to deceive him, on the contrary, it would be useful to induce him to reflect on the problems and uncertainties that marriage can bring and actually brings with itself, given that 50% of marriages end up in court. Proposing heterosexual marriage as the only possible option for a homosexual means even laying the foundation not only for the failure of an entirely artificial family union, which will inevitably weigh on children, but also means condemning a gay to a life entirely against nature, i.e. against his nature, and condemning a woman, who would have every right to have a husband really in love with her, to live in a state of great uncertainty and total dissatisfaction not only sexual but, in almost all cases, even emotional.
5) The idea that the "sacrifice" is a value in itself. Too often guys tend to see the renunciation of their spontaneous sexuality as a merit in the name of the ideal of the family. In reality, when a gay gets married he is convinced that accepting the sacrifice of his sexuality is something high and noble, but in no case self-repression leads, in the long run, to positive outcomes, and the "sacrifice" accepted by the gay, it actually ends up being a violent conditioning imposed on the life of a wife who often isn’t event aware.
6) The idea that conformism to traditional values is always positive, even for those who with certain traditional institutions, such as marriage, have nothing at all to do. Families rarely appreciate freedom and often tend to believe that what is socially accepted is, for this only reason, the best path to follow for everyone and in every situation.
7) The idea that obedience is always a virtue and the free of the single person must be systematically sacrificed in the name of socially accepted general rules.
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| HOMOSEXUALITY AS A GUILT-PATHOLOGY AND MARRIAGE AS A REMEDY |
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Posted by: gayprojectforum - 09-24-2018, 10:40 AM - Forum: Understand to be gay
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This post is dedicated to married gays, so I will leave aside all the considerations related to sexual orientation of guys who have a straight sex life at the couple level and having a sex life typically gay at the level of masturbation, because these considerations have an important sense only before you get married.
I will start here from the situation of married gays, as I see it through the chats with people living in this condition. In my dialogues with married gay guys of all ages, the idea that when we are young, we are very often led to underestimate homosexuality and to consider it a choice and, even worse, a reversible choice, is always present. Too many times one hears people telling that one chooses to be gay and this totally false statement creeps into the brains of the guys who, forgive me the desecrating but instructive example, consider homosexuality not as their nature, i.e. as a personal fundamental characteristic but as a kind of drug that is a bad thing in itself but that can be taken in the end, in small doses, because it is taken for granted that one can come out of it when and how one wants.
Homosexuality has nothing negative and it is not a habit that leads to addiction, such as the use of drugs but it is a reality about which it makes no sense to say: "I go out of it when I want" because being gay is not a choice. The idea coming from a religious matrix of the homosexuality as a vice that if rooted leads to an addiction, that is to a vice no longer eradicable, is still widespread and continues to produce incalculable damages, inducing gays to marriage in the belief that, in the end, with an act of will, they can also choose to be straight.
The married gays know very well how much this wrong vision of things is deleterious. Very often, in socially backward reality in which homophobia dominates, children learn from an early age to see homosexuality as a disvalue, all traditional education presupposes the heterosexuality of guys and, where there are gay guys, who are eight percent of the guys and therefore are practically everywhere, causes them to repress any gay drive through feelings of guilt.
The Catholic Church still officially has attitudes that are substantially homophobic and, in substance even if not in words, incites hatred against homosexuals. With Pope Francis the tone, at the top, has changed, but eradicating homophobia from the Church is a something that seems to be destined for failure, admitted and not granted that someone really intends to attempt it.
The attitudes of the family are often backwarded and violently repressive. I invite those who have not seen it to see a very significant French film: "Juste une question d'amour" in which parents who embody two different attitudes have to face the homosexuality of the sons. When the repression of homosexuality is so strong as to induce the guys not only to eliminate external behaviors that may make people think of homosexuality but even to fight against their own homosexual instincts at a very private level by repressing spontaneous masturbation in a gay key, it becomes unfortunately possible and concrete the possibility that a guy can think not only of forcing himself not to be gay but even to be straight.
These are forms of profound violence that completely alter and I would say completely distort the affectivity and sexuality of a gay guy, who is encouraged to create a heterosexual relationships and to cultivate it by "imitating" the attitudes of other guys; in these cases the removal of homosexuality is seen as a moral merit and heterosexual sexuality is accepted as "medicine of homosexuality".
Behind all this, the idea of sexuality as a vice and therefore as a fault is evident. On closer inspection, it is easy to understand that where very elementary and dogmatic conceptions of nature dominate, the complexity of reality is compressed into schemes derived from pure prejudices. To think that sexuality is aimed only at procreation is an assumption of principle that is systematically contradicted at the social level and in individual behavior.
The expression "against nature" has been and is still used systematically with regard to behaviors and to the same homosexual libido. Instead of knowing what variants of human sexuality are, it is much easier to consider them as deviations "against nature" or as acquired vices, or cultural choices, more or less induced from the outside. To consider homosexuality a vice rather than a variant of human sexuality means to base the whole approach to homosexuality on totally wrong grounds.
When a guy evaluates his homosexuality as a vice against which one must resist to return to true sexuality according to nature, in fact, he takes an attempt of self-repression that results in an attempt to avoid or contain masturbation, to escape from the occasions in which homosexual instincts can be more easily reawakened, to sublimate homosexuality in affectionate friendship, and, at the end, to choose of a way without return like marriage. I report here (with the consent of the author) an email I received.
"I am writing to you with great fear because I don’t know who you are, and the fact that you are gay embarrasses me. I’m 25 years old, I have distinctly felt an interest in guys for a few years, but I don’t feel repulsed by girls, now I have a girlfriend for a few months and all in all I feel quite at ease with her, she's very sweet and she's not obsessed with sex like some girls that I had before, we love each other, she is not at the top of my thoughts, I sometimes let myself go to pornography and in particular gay pornography, but with my girlfriend I think that a serious relationship could also be built. I want to say that if I work hard I can do without gay porn and even without masturbation for several days and I think if I had a family I could put all these things aside to dedicate myself to my family. I feel that I'm at a turning point, because if I wanted, I could arrive to the wedding and even in a short time and my girlfriend would be very happy and even our parents, and in the end, it would be good for me, but honestly for me it's very hard to decide because then I could not go back. I would love to get married and do away with pornography once and for all. etc., but I'm afraid of doing the biggest stupid thing in my life. There is something that makes me reflect and it is the fact that I talk with my girlfriend about everything but I could not talk about my homosexual fantasies because I think that she wouldn’t really understand the meaning of such a thing, she’s fine with me, we pamper each other with a minimum of petting but she would never understand that for me there is something else, she is convinced that homosexuality is a vice that can be overcome with good will and perhaps with the help of a good psychologist. I too, years ago, tended to give for granted all these things but lately I started to think that things are much less easy than people make them look. I asked myself many questions about my future and what I really want. Recently I met a guy at the university and I started to look at him with interest, but not only for reasons of sex, as I did before, but to look at him with emotional interest, he made me feel tenderness, I wanted to stay next to him, there was also sex, but not just sex, and for the first time I began to think that for me a love story could be possible even with a guy and maybe even more with a guy than with a girl. I don’t know anything about the gay reality, which objectively scares me but I'm not at all sure that I want to give up my private and tiny gay world to go to a wedding that honestly scares me a little because in the end it could be a real trap. But now what have I to do? My girlfriend expects the wedding, like our parents and friends, etc. etc .. I think I need someone who forces me to admit things that I now see even by myself, even if then transforming the clarity of ideas that I'm gaining into concrete actions is really difficult."
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| A REAL CASE OF GAY-THEMED OBSESSIVE-COMPULSIVE DISORDER |
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Posted by: gayprojectforum - 09-23-2018, 06:36 PM - Forum: Gay orientation
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We are going now to deal with homophobia in the OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder), something that has nothing to do with attitudes of social homophobia, i.e. with the episodes of intolerance towards gays that we read in the press (phobia "against gays") determined by the ignorance and the incitement to the aggression towards gays, we are properly going to deal with the phobia, but it would be better to say the obsessive idea "of being gay" that manifests itself in the OCD. It is a disorder that can create states of deep suffering and that must be acknowledged and dealt with by adequate means, sometimes and not rarely with the help of a specialist.
Recognizing an OCD with an obsessive idea of being gay is not easy because we are often brought to see all the homophobia, even the apparent homofobia that as "obsessive idea of being gay" characterizes the DOC, as it were a phenomenon of social or cultural origin neglecting the fact that it can be a real pathology that should not be underestimated and that has causes that are not only related to social and cultural environment. As part of the activity of Gay Project, I have often had discussions with young people affected by the OCD with the obsessive idea of being gay. In particular, I exchanged a series of e-mails with a 22-year-old guy, that I'll call here Mark, which allowed me to clarify a lot of ideas about the gay-themed OCD because he showed me the situation from his point of view, that is from the inside.
What follows is a passage from one of his e-mails.
"If you want to transcribe or publish my story for the sake of other guys, feel free to do it without any problem, the more this evil is known by people, the more genuinely homosexual people understand that “I’m the sick” and not they, the better it will be, I think."
I would say that this statement is the sign of the human and as well cultural maturity of this guy whom I thank heartily. I have explicitly requested and obtained permission from my interlocutor to publish the contents of our correspondence. In approaching the core of the problem step by step, always in full respect of privacy, I followed the same path that he followed in his emails. I apologize to the reader if the path will be long, but clarifying these things also requires the reader to pay a little attention.
Mark, a university student, begins his first email like this:
"I am writing to you with an anxiety and a terror on me that are almost indescribable but I need to have a confrontation".
He then tells about his family situation, certainly not easy, strongly conflicting relationships with his parents, an early adolescence disbanded and without reference points, bad moments characterized by rebellion, school failures, dyed hair, fights, light drugs, vandalism, escapes, etc. , subsequently the contact with other people gives him confidence and puts him back in a livable environment.
He enters a path of very deep growth that leads him to build a "personality at least partially independent from everything and everyone" that anyhow summarizes, in his opinion, the best of all those who made him raise "in good faith and with love" and he feels himself in a good part the result of their commitment.
From the point of view of sexuality Mark's adolescence was rather complex. From an early age he had a passion for the feet and didn’t make too much distinction between man and woman but the female foot for him remained the object of a special pleasure. Growing up, because of the unleashing of hormones, masturbation focused on all the women he knew, including teachers, "to bloom in the middle school with real opportunities to deep the subject" but before he experienced heterosexual intercourse, as sometimes happens, Mark with his friends discovers and experiences the group masturbation on straight porn, "logically doing each for himself".
One day, however, a friend "a bit effeminate" wants to go further and Mark follows him "doing tests several times, even coming to penetration but always thinking of women, and especially wanting it to happen with a girl as quickly as possible."
At about 12-13 years, both Mark and his partner of sexual explorations start to look for "a girlfriend" and the moments of experimentation and sexual curiosity between them become rarer but don't stop.
"I and this effeminate friend had not yet found a woman and sometimes, not yet knowing how it was this intercourse with women, we were nevertheless very intrigued, dreamed of having it, and we continued those experiences without ever having emotional relationships that disgusted us, and indeed we avoided certain contacts because they were annoying and sometimes even caused real disturbances."
It should be noted that Mark underlines the "effeminacy" of his friend. After these experiences, always considered pure curiosity, Mark and his friend find both a girlfriend. Mark emphasizes that, even during the experiences with his friend, the masturbation was 99% heterosexual and very desired and satisfying but sometimes, as a makeshift, not having the ability to have real girls, the fantasies "fell somehow on a male dimension, in practice we fantasized about what we could have done to women, but doing it among us, nothing more."
"Returning to the girls, the experiences with them began, the blows of lightning (I always had even at kindergarten so much interest in girls that I was often was put in a punishment because surprised while touching my female peers or anyway I remember dreams about my female friends and the deep desire to have them and smell them), the desire was fierce and uncontrollable, up to make me feel bad, I started living in another world in a way so engaging that I thought with disgust to things done between friends and I had some personal problems.
To make it short, my adolescence broke out with an very strong addiction and hunger for the woman that led me to neglect the study and to fall in love often and always wanting to have a girl, smell her, touch her, lick her, and so on. I had the first serious 4-year history, previously various experiences but tortuous because I often changed targets because I was interested in several girls at the same time and with a continuous and almost uncontrollable masturbation because it was my maximum daily desire.”
I would say, Mark's adolescence, however agitated, does not present objectively pathological elements, but he himself describes the first appearance of the obsessive idea.
"Among engagements, cuddles, kisses, the desire to be loved by a girl, to be his, to feel his jealousy, to feel myself as her property, to make love, etc. etc., I never noticed, however, one of my emerging behaviors: I tended to obsess me several times on various things, on touching things an precise number of times, on getting up the stairs running otherwise I would felt wrong, on putting in order, on cleaning, on talking saying well determined things, on apologizing to objects, on suffering from absurd things, etc. etc. and from here it began, at the age of 14, my obsessive identity, calm but present, which reached his maximum one day during a holiday in the mountains, while I was hearing a story of a family friend, who spoke of the coming out of an colleague of his beyond suspicion.
I was terrified and afraid that I could become gay and that I would be obliged to go with men and I immediately connected all this to the things I had done years ago, without fear and without any meaning, with my friends, and I began to ruminate: "but perhaps are you gay?”, " are you sure?" Anyway, unpredictably, over years the thing became more aggressive in some periods and faded in others. In the meantime I started to meet new friends, to go to the gym and to attend people much more beautiful and mature than me for whom I felt envy and even submission because I was not able to compete with them.
My confident and strong personality almost bully went down until I felt myself practically only as a sheep that believes to be a lion, I realized that I was just an inflated balloon and that those qualities I saw as mine were just what I wanted to have but I didn't have, so I had to "build" everything, brick by brick, physique, mind, sex appeal etc. etc.. So sometimes, I happened to admire some people for their beauty and I felt myself as a slave in front of them: "I'm inferior, they are beautiful, it is not that I'm gay?" And there I began to obsess myself more and more and my mind was playing switching things, all the things that (forgive the frankness) made me sick and bothered me, as the homosexual relationships, appeared as an "obligation" because they were or, at least, looked beautiful and if I was able to notice and appreciate their beauty (always with envy) I had to let myself go and enjoy them and so things went on until this fear became automatic, leading to a real panic, anxiety and almost an anorexic crisis.
Before getting to this I was full of fear but occasionally and in the meantime I kept falling easily in love with female friends and I wanted to find love, have sex, etc. etc. until I met my current girlfriend, whom I met through friends that we had in common. It did not snap like lightning but slowly so that we broke up and I, when she got engaged again, felt as if they had taken something away from me and I wrote to her that I needed her and that if she had broken up again with her new boyfriend, she would have found me there, ready to wait for her ... in the meanwhile the obsession that at that time happened very few times and had almost faded was almost no longer present."
I have to underline that when the obsessive idea recedes Mark lives a fully heterosexual sexuality. Mark continues.
"One day she writes me, she had really broken up with her boyfriend because she was not well with him and because my message had made her think, while I had made my own world and had began to feel good on my own but, as you know, the heart follows only his own way, and so we threw ourselves into this relationship that lasts even now and is very solid so much so that we strongly depend on each other, in the meantime I have continued to change, to grow, to become mentally independent: I understood that I don’t believe in God and I recognized myself as an atheist, I started to love science and to analyze many aspects of life from a logical point of view and no longer following mysterious or transcendent meanings, I put aside my homophobia and made friendships with homosexual people that still persist and are excellent.
In this last year I have made friends with a guy through a common friend of ours, immediately we were in tune as two brothers separated at birth, he was one of those friends who are counted on the fingers, one of the few I had, with whom to share profound topics of life, such as god, science, the meaning of life, etc. etc., a few months ago, however, this friend of mine beyond suspicion (in the meantime I became more obsessed about homosexuality, I was afraid that someone wanted to rape me or that a man forced me to do certain things, I feared and eschewed affectionate manifestations among male friends) reveals to me that he is gay, I calmly tell him that everything is ok and that he must be calm, must be what he is and that I hope I have not behaved badly with some typical joke about homosexuals, everything turns into an even more solid friendship so much so that he tells me his pains of love as if such a thing were obvious, but there in a few days my obsession mounts resulting in an attack of panic, anxiety and deep anorexia, I was not able to sleep and eat for weeks, and then I went on the internet looking "can you become gay?", "fear of being gay?" etc. etc. and I found a forum that talked about a disorder called "Obsessive-compulsive disorder related to the fear of becoming homosexual" like those behaviors of washing your hands or always checking the gas and I fully recognized myself in the gay themed OCD.
I have been in drug therapy for two months, in psychoanalysis and a bit depressed, I have completely lost myself and the search for reassurance has led me to distort my natural attraction for women with intrusive images of sexual acts and fake feelings of pleasure, as if I had to follow that path, I was obliged, this makes me feel very bad, the drugs already take away my libido and therefore I struggle to make love with my girlfriend (while up to a month before it was hard to me to leave my house because the desire to have sex was uncontrollable) and the ideas in the head become more and more dense and reading on your site of repressed homosexuality, latent homosexuality and so on, I felt more and more terrified until to have real crises of identity; now I feel very down, I have a very strong crisis that doesn’t let me breath, so I wanted to ask you what you can draw from my story according to your opinion and your experience.
I add that I was diagnosed with a OCD, by both a psychiatrist and a psychologist and also by professional friends, the disease that I told you above, I suffer from anxiety and obsessiveness from an early age but the characteristic of this evil is that it tends to make you feel what you are not, to cover other problems, according to the psychologist about my father and / or very painful experiences of my life. I feel really bad because I losing myself and I feel like I can no longer love women and their sex that I need, but this obsession blocks me with thoughts and reasoning that lead me to believe that I became gay.
I conclude by saying that I have erased homophobia because I have understood that it is natural and normal to be gay, I have found interesting people and I’m pleased that they live their lives serenely and I deeply hate all those who condemn these things, so I don’t have according to the definition of my disease, any problems with homosexuality and even more I didn’t have problems with my sexual orientation, but all this has given me a thousand doubts about my whole life and I'm afraid of not being able to be myself."
At his first email I answered Mark:
"I read your email very carefully. From all that you write it emerges quite clearly the picture of the OCD that manifests itself through the fear of being gay. It seems clear enough to me that this fear is unfounded, none of the things you say, neither pre-teen nor teenage experiences with other boys, nor recurring ideas related to the fear of being gay, are indicative of gay sexual orientation.
I see you very worried, and the OCD can do this, but I would like to say to you that it happened to me more than once to meet guys with this type of disorder connected to the obsessive idea of being gay, in some cases the disorder made those guys feel bad, however, those guys, followed by experienced people, both at the pharmacological level, when necessary, and at a psychological level of support, have seen things change very clearly, gradually and in not very short times, but the weight of obsessive ideas became progressively less, so much so that their relationship life has not really been conditioned.
These guys are not homosexuals and they live homosexuality only as a phobia and as a conditioning. Some observations should be kept in mind, even if I realize that for a guy with the OCD these are arguments that cannot be decisive, in the first place I don’t think you are gay, but admitted and not granted that you were gay, this would not really affect your life. I know a lot of guys who are happy to be gay and feel fulfilled like that. But, I stress it again, I don’t think you have anything to do with gays, and indeed I really enjoy the fact that you can have gay friends and that you give good judgments about them.
You can have obsessive ideas, of course, you can have them and you must try to realize that the situation of discomfort can be greatly alleviated by behavioral therapies that aim to prevent obsessive responses through a rational awareness. Until not many years ago these disorders in fact were not treated except with non-specific forms of psychotherapy, today there is the possibility of resorting to highly specific drugs that help a lot to contain the problem. Unfortunately, situations are complicated for those guys who are left to themselves up to 35/40 years and over, then an effective approach becomes more difficult, but at your age the combination of supportive therapy and drug therapy can really change things that is, it can allow you to live a normal life.
I add one thing, the guys with OCD are usually guys with IQs higher than normal. You are a student of a scientific faculty and the study can help you a lot to find a basic serenity, through the learning of a scientific method of analysis of reality. In the starting of the OCD certainly also counts the family atmosphere and in particular the emotional stress in relationships with parents and you certainly have not experienced from this point of view an ideal situation, you reacted, it is true, but you have also suffered. If I can be useful in something, I will do it willingly."
Mark replies:
"Thanks, Project, for the email and especially for the afternoon's chat that helped me to see things from the outside, if I can still steal you some time, I would like to talk with you because, even if you know that my disorder leads me to seek reassurance, information, self-test and so on until I get exhausted (and people who are worried about me say that it is like taking drugs and I should try to stop informing me, test me and reassure me but it's really hard), I cannot study and my thinking is practically centered almost exclusively on this problem, I would like to remind you again that I have great respect for homosexual people and I don’t even consider them "homosexual" because I start from the concept of personal freedom and therefore, telling frankly, I don’t care what you do in bed, who you love or if you like red or blue, I’m interested in people for what they are and if they are "different" from me, it’s even better, we will have more to tell.
Already now, while I am writing you my mind is bringing me images and feelings that give me anxiety, fear and terror, all because I’m afraid of not being able to love my girlfriend anymore, of not being able to make love as I once did with her, because, I'm afraid that one day all this can end and that I can no longer fall in love with other women, enjoy painful loves or transitory affection (not to say escapades) with any girl who attracts me, and this for all these questions that I'm asking myself, for the crisis I have and for the consequences that day by day I pay".
Then Mark focuses on drug therapy and it is clear that he has acquired a remarkable ability to interpret the therapeutic meaning of the drugs that have been prescribed to him.
"You have to know that my therapy has been changed, now I take an extra drug in addition to the two of the initial therapy: [omissis] a tranquillizer that "should" keep at bay the anxiety caused by the thoughts and intrusive images that does, poor thing, its meager effect, in the long run, I already notice it, [omissis] this is the novelty that should block the ideation or should help me not to fall into the traps of "asking questions" continuously with the consequent effect of self-conviction and feeling of being what is feared (homosexual, dirty, sick with AIDS, opened gas, not to love one's own partner, etc., etc.), that is, it should limit the emergence of images and intrusive thoughts".
Then Mark continues:
"Let’s come back to us, I wanted to expose to you my doubts given what I read on your site, I scanned it accurately, as a true OCDed, as they say in jargon, I read also on the Internet that often they talk about "acceptance", "latent homosexuality", to give you an example: from an excerpt of an interview with Tiziano Ferro [well known Italian singer] he declares that he liked women, before, that he was engaged, etc. etc. I have read sometimes of these stories ... people who live "rewarding" hetero lives, who then "discover" that they are gays (this makes me feel an anxiety and a panic you don’t even imagine).
I see it a bit strange, let's see it on the contrary: a heterosexual who is born in a homosexual society will feel "unfit" to the social context and the typical relationships that he likes and morally accepts will be different from those of his peers because he will not be able to do the same experiences that others do, or, perhaps, he will try but he will remain very discontented and scalded (not to say traumatized) so he will soon understand that his happiness depends on some factors very different from those on which depends the happiness of most of the others, that others may not like these things that therefore may not be accepted.
I think this is the path that a person with a certain sexual orientation accomplishes in "understanding who he is" in front of the society, I certainly don’t believe in respect to himself, I try to explain myself better: I never understood that I liked women since I was born until the first crush that gravitated around them, then the nocturnal emissions, the falling in love with girls, the first kiss desired so much (and soon arrives the intrusive image with attached thought "and if I had wanted a first kiss from a man?" .. pain, anxiety and panic), the sexual experiences (removing that small and short experience of self-knowledge in which there was curiosity and inability to resolve it with the other sex, as I told you) became uncontrollable, so much craved and wanted almost more than anything else.
My spontaneous behavior, for family reasons, had no brakes and / or feedback because my family "was not there" and therefore I didn’t have to be ashamed of anything, I went freely to wander up where the my natural tendency pushed me, and it pushed really strongly, and I believe it is the same even for those who have a different trend than mine, it is not that you look in the mirror and you notice a new "pimple" that you had not seen before "Wow, I 'm gay!" or "Wow, I'm straight!" I think it is the fear of the label, as I read very often, that upsets people who know they have desires different from those of others, but not the relationship with their own pleasure, that I think is indisputable and not subject to doubt, something like this: "I know that I like guys, I'm happy with what I feel but I'm afraid to show myself" or for the most sensitive people: "I like to go with men, but society says it is a disorder, how disgusting I behave!" But the pleasure and desire remains, does not fall from the sky as a drop of rain or I'm wrong here too? In this period I’m studying a subject in which there is much talk about order and laws, about how living "things" don’t respond to chaos but to an order, that in reality, in my opinion, is a different form of chaos, chaos has the purpose of making an equation nonsensical, the order, the opposite, is a bit like the oracle and the matrix architect, do you agree?
Returning to the doubts, when the OCD attacks furious, as in these two days, I spend my time asking at each kiss of my girlfriend what I felt, what I wanted, what I was experiencing, why I did it, "but are you sure?", "I don’t feel anything", "if I close my eyes I don’t feel the pleasure I felt when I was in love with her or when I kissed her 4 evenings ago" and so on, until my brain breaks out.
I feel really that I'm sinking in the ground below, I want to be with her as I have done so far, I'll tell you more, dear project (dear because you listen to me and I wonder how much stuff you have to read every day!) Yesterday evening at my dearest gay friend's house while seeing a film among friends in addition to the obsessive thoughts and a bit of doc, but controlled enough, I got with my great pleasure even sexual thoughts with relative relentless desire for oral intercourse with a dear girl, friend of mine sitting next to my girlfriend (because of this I felt myself also a traitor, but this has encouraged me a lot) but it happened really with desire, while I felt that the rest was, always with the doubt that gripped the mind, a forced thing, mean, sadistic, intended only to the make me feel hurt.
I conclude this email with two other little things, I believe, project, that we all always know what really makes us happy and what pleases us, love is the undeniable testimony (if you can say) of such things, falling in love, adolescents or of adult age, it is something of which we aren't usually fully aware but will anyhow in the future our guide, so as to allow us to define ourselves, to understand in which "group" we are, logically it should end there in a really free society, but this is another matter.
I do not think there are "calls" to gay sexuality, similar to the call for the religious vocation or other calls, that sprout from one day to the next, born after years and years of marriage or deep heterosexual relationships, amorous and with desire also painful, I allow myself, without quoting a precise source, to bring to your attention also the casuistry that no one has ever thought to draw but that I mentally did on how many homosexuals have ever discovered that they were instead heterosexuals, I don’t think there is anyone like that, a homosexual is very proud of his homosexuality he is born this way and will die this way, and for a heterosexual it is just the same, and so I believe my problem, my doubts like those of many others in my condition (project, you don’t imagine how many we are and how many suicides come from this evil) are based on a great misinformation made by the gay "partisans" and by the hunchbacked and secular homophobia of some "sophists" who have very personal and distorted beliefs about a very natural condition that they are unable to accept in their minds, they are the only example of those who don’t accept, who are a bit like Islamic fundamentalists, Nazis, etc. etc., the xenophobes par excellence, but speaking among us, between those who are not afraid neither of homo nor of hetero, acceptance means only finding the courage in "a world like this" to behave freely, but has nothing to do with "discovering" something that has always been there but has never been seen, but it is only what has always been there and that has never been seen, admitted and not granted that it exists, what makes me terrorize, what has destroyed in these two days the desire to kiss and make love with my girlfriend (in this the drugs give a deadly blow).
When I hear people saying "I used to go out looking for women and now I just realized I'm gay" I feel upset by the triviality of such a statement, as if they had said: "I just found out now that I had that mole there." How can you find out that you like men, after having turned 50? And masturbation where do you put it? The falling in love? The erotic dreams? The fantasies in the classroom or at work? And there would be a lot to add to what has just been said, if you have time, desire and without any obligation I would like to compare myself with you. I thank you in advance and I ask you again if I can write you other times so as to have a good liberating and perhaps curative comparison for the problem I have now."
This was my answer:
"You certainly can write to me whenever you want and I will try to read your e-mails with the utmost care and to answer without filters, step by step. Beyond the things that people tell and that are very little realistic, it is absolutely obvious that in the vast majority of cases when it is said that a guy "discovered that he was gay at age 25" it means only that that guy has accepted his homosexuality at 25.
Sexual orientation has very distant origins and its first manifestations are very precocious, then it matures slowly through masturbation during adolescence, but in substance it is clearly defined as early as 13/14 years. When it comes to latent homosexuality, the speech is a bit different, but I have to premise a very clear concept that certainly puts you out of this category. Latent homosexuality means that a person who ends up recognizing himself as gay can live for years as perfect hetero, but that person through all those years will not be "minimally touched by any doubt" about his sexual orientation. I would like to say that a guy with latent homosexuality lives the emergence of his gay orientation in a problematic way "only when he is fully aware of it", something that can also be waited for life. I’m not even speaking about doubts on sexual orientation, that when emerges, comes out without oscillations, but essentially about social and behavioral disorientation, when it emerges.
Doubts are a feature that is substantially absent in cases of latent homosexuality both before and after (see "perhaps" by Tiziano Ferro).
The sensations that you feel, manifest, if ever, the awareness of a problem that objectively doesn’t exist, then the exact opposite of what happens to a latent gay for whom "there is no problem". Put aside the idea of latent homosexuality, which is also something objectively rare (I think I met no more that a couple of such cases in last ten years), it remains that people improperly use the expression latent homosexuality as a synonym of repressed homosexuality, denied, but anyway objectively aware.
The orientation of masturbation is fundamental and a guy knows very well where his spontaneous sexual desires are oriented. The speeches that I hear very often by the repressed gay guys (because repressed guys are many) manifestly show their "effort" present and past to adapt to a straight sexuality that doesn’t belong to them, to force themselves to "love" a girl. The things you write are really different and frankly the idea that you can be gay doesn’t seem really credible.
I don’t tell you such things to give you a sop (which with the OCD couldn't still reassure you) but because it is clearly what I think. You talk about your girlfriend as a guy deeply in love even if distressed by a thousand doubts, but those doubts basically you know that they have nothing to do with the sexual orientation but are coming from the OCD.
It happened to me years ago to talk with a guy then 19-year-old who had made a dangerously gay life, he lived with a 40-year-old man, he went around gay clubs and keeping also very risky behaviors,
then he met a girl and with this girl he began to feel good. He told me the story and asked me if it was strange that a gay guy could have a straight girl as a better friend. I replied: "A gay guy? But you are not gay!" He insisted that he was, but in fact what he told me about his 40-year-old companion and what he told about the girl were very different things, referring to the partner, he was only talking about sex without a real affective component, while referring to the girl, with whom he didn’t then have any sexual partnership, he used the language typical of true lovers.
After a few months he left the 40-year-old and went with the girl, with whom I also talked several times, and it went very well. I told you this story to emphasize that your talk about your girlfriend is just like that one of that guy. Yours are the typical speeches of a heterosexual guy in love, put in crisis by the OCD.
You have changed therapy and this will inevitably make you a little uncomfortable but in the medium term you will feel the benefits. Among other things some drugs [omissis] often have side effects on the sexual sphere. The typical problem of the use of these drugs is linked to the definition of the equilibrium dosage, because the side effects depend considerably on the doses and the individual variability are considerable. It certainly makes sense that you also have the support of a psychological therapy that can help you in the most problematic moments related to therapy and above all can give you some kind of quasi-affective certainty that will allow you to have firm points on which to count.
From what I understand by reading, your girlfriend really loves you and this is very important. You are not left to yourself, you have around people who love you. It is true that you have also lived under the familiar profile very difficult years but now you are fully aware of it, even if you cannot easily go further, with a bundle of memories like yours.
If you have doubts and you think I can tell you something useful about them, I’m here, for whatever I can do, but I’m here also, if you want, to exchange emails on other issues also not related to sexuality. For the moment I embrace you and send you this e-mail."
Mark replies:
"Hello Project, Happy New Year first of all. I wanted to chat with you again, my obsession became more independent and I just "saw" it, I feel it coming to hit what is very important for me, but from this situation it takes a lot to get out of it, especially since they told me that it is based on a mental problem and that I must learn to live with it. If I can bore you another time, I wanted to update you on my current condition and have a little comparison with you.
I broke up with my girlfriend, under the impulse of a tremendous desire for new experiences, I wrote to new girls, all of them attract me and for the new year I fell in love with one that is a wonder, I could not take my eyes away off her!!! I had the hormones so much high that I tried to kiss all the girls, making also some stupid things, fortunately they know me, being my work colleagues and some of them are in faculty with me and so they know how I’m actually, I cannot hide anyway that I really would have liked to sex with all of them, but it's obvious and natural, isn’t it? ha ha ha.
The fact is that I don’t know what to do with my (ex) girlfriend, who was so close to my heart, sometimes I think of her and I miss her, but I think that the desire for adventure and the fact of having felt these feelings can't coexist with a really exclusive desire towards one single person, isn't it? So I think it's over but the idea of losing her forever is something I still struggle to accept. Perhaps the trouble had a bit gone, it was a little calmed or anyway it was controllable even if it hit hurting, today I returned to the routine, and I stalked going to do tests, self-tests, readings etc. etc., and, of course, I happened on your forum. I reread for the umpteenth time the article about guys who find themselves gay after a heterosexual life, who find it hard to accept: "For guys who have experienced a previous heterosexual phase, identifying themselves as gays doesn’t obviously coincide with sexual maturation but it follows puberty even for several years, the great majority of these guys get to identify themselves as gay between 20 and 25/26 years but for some the age is moved even further." But then one can BECOME gay? I don’t say it with disdain, you know what I think, but are there really people who don’t realize their sexuality? I was clearly and sharply aware it until yesterday the other with tips of obsessiveness but are there really people who take "conscience" of it only at 20-25? I'm 22 years old and I'm a bit afraid of this thing, I don’t want to miss the opportunities with the girls who still attract me, I want the attention of a woman! You have to know that for me it's a period a bit so, the drugs that I take have destroyed my sex life as I struggle to do everything ... masturbation is very rare and I'm afraid of having a relationship with a girl because maybe I wouldn’t be able to get to the end."
I answered in my turn:
"Hello Mark, reading your last email only confirms that you have nothing to do with gays and that the search for information on discovering themselves gay after adolescence is the result of disorders that unfortunately don’t allow you feel good. Not only in your email are missing gay elements but there are plenty of clearly hetero elements that don’t leave open glimpses to the idea that you can be gay. But here I would stop for a moment, because the ability to transform the possibility of being gay into an obsessive idea derives largely from the negative idea that you have assimilated from the environment about homosexuality.
The OCD induces fears always related to elements seen as negative and intrinsically disturbing, but while the fear of diseases is a fear of things that really scare, the fear of being gay is the fear of a condition (being gay) to which one can attribute a negative meaning only because it has been assimilated by the environment, in which we grew up, the idea that being gay is a calamity and a terrible thing, which objectively makes no sense.
It would not hurt to try to debunk the negative myth of being gay. know many gays and they are very respectable people and in many cases really good people and not at all obsessed or upset by the idea of being what they really are. They're gay, and that's it, they live their lives, they have their affections, they don’t even look like what people thinks gays to be, they're ordinary people who fall in love with people of the same sex. Please note that if a gay is not afraid of being what he is and doesn’t feel upset at all, the simple fear of being gay shouldn’t even exist, in practice it is as if a blond was afraid to become brown, apart from the fact that it is not really possible, it is not clear what it would have to fear, it wouldn’t be an upheaval from any point of view except for the habit of being blond.
The only thing about your mail that gives me some perplexity is the fact that you are putting aside the relationship with your girlfriend, to which you seemed and probably were very close. On the one hand you say that the therapies limit your sex life even at the level of masturbation but for the other you talk about strong sexual involvement, I stress it, always and only towards girls. But you talk about this strong sexual desire in the straight direction just at a time when the disturbance due to the OCD had decreased significantly, which only confirms that, beyond the OCD, gay sexuality is not really part of your horizons. What you say about girls for a gay guy would be absolutely inconceivable.
The OCD conditions you at certain moments, but you know that you see the idea of looking for information on gays more as a temptation than as a really compulsive element. This fact, combined with the fact that you have spent periods substantially without the conditioning of the OCD bodes well because the OCD is controllable and is not violently intrusive to the point of canceling your spontaneous hetero drives, which are there and strongly show themselves. I can tell you that all this seems to me a step forward and even your email doesn’t taste at all like something written under heavy compulsive conditioning because you talk a lot about heterosexual sexuality, which if you were under a strong influence of the OCD would not happen because you would be totally dominated by intrusive ideas.
Basically it seems that the therapies have an effect and all this is very important. I'll point out one last thing and then I'll send you this email. You write me very freely and look for a comparison with me through a gay site and all this doesn’t terrify you at all, indeed, this manifests a form of deep respect for me and for what I represent, and all this would not happen if you had also just a thread of homophobia. You are not homophobic not even at minimal levels and yet you see homosexuality as something foreign that can attack you. The weight of the education received, in the deep, remains. These are issues that are in any case under control and it is to be believed that they will not ruin your life because you already have an attitude that doesn’t seem to be dominated by a really obsessive idea. The help of drugs is important, it is true, but becoming aware of the objective groundlessness of one's own fears is certainly not a negligible element. A hug and still a sincere wish of a lot a serenity for this 2012 just begun."
The next email from Mark is probably the most interesting because it points out and clarifies the fundamental aspects of the OCD.
"Hey Project, I'm glad you answered me, I was afraid that you could consider my email like the result of the usual "compulsion", thank you !! You say: “Because the ability to transform the possibility of being gay into an obsessive idea derives largely from the negative idea that you have assimilated from the environment about homosexuality." What you say certainly happened long time ago, but then I understood that homosexuality was a natural thing, obvious and even worthy of esteem because it’s love exactly as that one between man and woman, I understood all this long before my problem broke out.
I’m a bit obsessive from birth and this came out with the psychiatrist. I’m not afraid of homosexuality as of an evil, ugly and undesirable thing but as something I don’t want because I don’t like it and it doesn’t belong to me! It's like the poor man who was born in a mountain village where homosexuality is considered as a crime and he feels obliged not to be what he feels, to have to be with a woman, to do things that make him sick, this I say, I'm becoming crazy because my brain speaks to me whispering these things, things that are not part of me, that I don’t like, offers me images about anyone, even about my loved ones, it distorts the feelings towards girls (the girl with whom I fell in love has a brother well quiet, can you believe that while I admired her and drooled, my brain told me "Is it not that you are undecided and you might like both?" And I felt bad for a moment and I tried not to think of what my brain had just suggested to me and concentrate on my heart and my feelings pleasantly satisfied by the girl); the problem is right here, it is something that wants to change me, that mockingly, even if I don’t have problems with homosexuality, and respect it, and even being interested in understanding its world and its problems, turns it against me, making me assume my peacefulness as a unconscious will, and therefore making me think that I’m hiding something to myself and here is the trigger of obsession.
You gave me the example of blond and brown but it is a bit too simplistic, if you take the sexuality, it focuses the individual in a dimension that touches the being in points really at the root: nature and "spirit", that feel in danger, because there is a force (the obsession or the forcing, in the case of the guy of the country who is obliged) that is imposed and automatic mechanisms of defense start, not because it is bad being blond or brown but because I’M NOT BROWN and becoming it would be a big problem.
Can you imagine a life with a woman, who touches you, has sex with you, kisses you, her smell her presence? I think it's horrible FOR YOU not as an objective thing, but FOR YOU it would not be desirable, for me it's the same thing but on the contrary, it's a beautiful thing that two people love each other, no doubt and, as I tell you, I’m for the free love and that everyone does what they feel, but I don’t feel gay, I have a problem, a pathology diagnosed to me that cannot be deleted with the abatement of the preconceptions about "homosexuality" that is nothing unhealthy in my mind, on the contrary, I reiterate that I have friendships and deep esteem with many homosexual people and as you have said I respect you very much and I consider you a person to whom I wanted to tell my story of which I am ashamed and you don’t imagine how much! I speak alone, I hit myself, I scream, tremble, get nightmares, I have been anorexic, all because inside me something is wrong, my sexuality is intact, my relationship with people who love people of the same sex is accepted and indeed profitable and I’m also proud of it so much so that in my family environment in which the thing is not well seen I defend you with a sword because nobody is in the right to criticize, denigrate another person for his sexual or love behavior, nobody.
As I cannot stand this and I easily infuriate having a very rational view of things and having put the sentimental / instinctive dimension under control, the same I do towards myself and this kills me because I cannot serenely live the crush on a woman because the OCD hides problems much deeper so much so that the first thing that they told me the ones who have had my problem for a long time and my psychiatrist has reaffirmed is the fact that my disease has nothing to do with the conception of homosexuality and indeed the advanced research in this field has shown that homophobia is not part of the disorder but it is sometimes a fictitious consequence for reasons of psychosis and neurosis that then lead to wrong defense mechanisms, but this is another story.
I, Project, am in a crisis that I had never faced before because I’m free to think as I want, I’m independent and open to everyone, wishing everyone's good, but my heart and my sexuality, having only one propensity, cannot in any case bend to those things, because it would be a problem, I feel bad thinking of having to go with a man and imagine it makes me feel dirty, raped and many other bad feelings, this upsets me, so it's not a good thing for me to think of myself in those conditions, for me it's a happy thing to think that two people who love the same sex can do it freely in the light of the sun, that can be friends with heterosexual people and that the labels decay sooner or later and that sexuality is something that, in a free society, can be considered as a mole on the back. My mind is so open that the only case in which collapse occurs is when something is imposed on me and goes against my health, against my being, against my nature. Here's everything. This has destroyed my image, my strength and my confidence in sexuality, has led me to have strange behaviors and to close a love that was good but was not right at this time, to go wrong at university etc. etc. … Now I end up with the shopping list, because you probably cannot take it anymore, I'm sorry if I went on too much but I wanted the argument to be clear: my primary care physician was the first to not understand the thing and is written in the DSM that my pathology is often difficult to diagnose because it is confused with non-acceptance, internalized homophobia, etc. etc. but this is not so, unfortunately, it is not a cultural question; you don’t know how much I feel guilty about the gay world for the things that I think because I know they are ordinary people, good and without anything to be ashamed of, but a mind that has problems, like mine, you don’t imagine what brings you to think and to do, I sometimes cannot understand if it is fiction or reality what I have around, I feel bad chest and I cry endlessly, because something wants to kill me inside, because I cannot love women anymore, I cannot be loved by them, I can no longer be myself. I know who I am but I feel lost and it's hard. Thanks for listening, I'm sorry to have insisted maybe a little too much, it was not my purpose. A hug."
I answered Mark in my turn:
"Hi Mark, I read your last email very carefully and it's as if my brain had opened up, in practice I began to really understand what you're talking about and I put aside the idea, objectively very superficial, that your ailments could have a dimension so to say cultural or environmental. Now I also come to understand means the sense of impossible involvement "for you" in a sexuality that is not yours and the general picture is much clearer to me.
I tried to tell you what I thought starting from totally wrong assumptions, now I realize it, but you have corrected me with great clarity and extreme tact, thing of which I thank you very much, because you made me enter more seriously into your world. What I learned from your last email will be very useful in the future to evaluate similar situations less superficially. If you think that I can be useful in any way, I’m at your disposal. You are truly a guy of great human dignity and I feel honored to have met you, I tell you it in all sincerity."
And Mark answered me in turn:
"Hey Project, I'm happy to have given you an opportunity to get a clearer idea of my problem and maybe a useful testimony for your future in helping people. If you want to transcribe or publish my story for the sake of other guys, feel free to do it without any problem, the more this evil is known by people, the more genuinely homosexual people understand that “I’m the sick” and not they, the better it will be, I think. If you like we can still chat, I find a good response in you. I thank you as always."
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| IS HE A LATENT GAY? |
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Posted by: gayprojectforum - 09-19-2018, 02:53 PM - Forum: Gays and sex
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Hello Project I just read your article about gay guys who have a sexual friendship with guys with latent homosexuality who will never admit that they are gay. I found what you wrote quite similar to what I experienced, in the sense that I have this friend, even engaged (with a girl), I meet each summer on vacation, and it is thanks to him that I came out of my latency, even if I've been trying to find a definition of my sexuality for three years and I cannot find one that fits me, I called myself bisex, but only because I happened to have feelings towards girls, despite my masturbations are in a gay key and just a little hetero. That is, during masturbation I tend to spontaneously have hetero fantasies, but I need to conclude in a gay key.
However I said that I found myself in the article because it is three summers that I end up sleeping with this friend of mine, in crescendo, it started with mutual masturbation and every summer we add something more, but the kisses are forbidden, and cuddling etc. Every time after having behaved the usual way he starts to denigrate me and begins to say phrases like, “it is getting too pleasant”, “it take me a lot of time to come”, “I came too little, with my girlfriend it is more pleasant, you're dangerous, we don’t have to do such things anymore" . . . but in the meantime we do it every time, he says he is straight, but by texting he asks me if I'm active or passive, he probes the ground, he asks me to come and visit him in his university residence where he lives alone. And every time we do it, then, he pretends nothing, tries to make me understand that he is just a friend, showing off with his girlfriend, not calculating me at all if I look at him, as if nothing had happened between us, because for him it’s just a thing without meaning. Because he cannot afford to be gay.
This September I chose not to call him, and he complained that I never call him. I told him that I needed to think, and he was strangely understanding and told me: okay, when you want, call me. After two months I decided to contact him again but because I love him and I would really like to be his friend, now I no longer expect him to wake up and stay with me, because now I have lost hope.
Also this time the same problem, if I try to be a friend, he starts talking about sex and asks me questions to probe the ground, even flirting. Every time we meet, he shows himself half naked, and I see him bare-chested and cannot resist, I don’t understand anything anymore and I always fall back on it.
It's a friendship that has lasted for more than 10 years, and I'd be wrong to have to cut it off and not hear him anymore. And I no longer know what to do, because I don’t like anymore this relationship, where there are no cuddles but only denigration; I prefer a normal friendship at this point. What do you advise me to do?
A hug. Richard
Hi Richard. The first question that arises is whether we are really facing a guy with latent homosexuality, what is possible, or a guy who is really aware of his homosexuality or at least bisexuality, perhaps with a strong hetero prevalence. The discriminating element (of which only the person concerned is aware) are the masturbation fantasies: if that guy was really a latent homosexual, his masturbation would be exclusively hetero, if instead there were "also", perhaps episodically, gay fantasies, then the category of latent homosexual should be totally put aside, because, in practice, the latency of homosexuality means that the same subject is not aware of it; and in essence in all cases the consciousness of one's sexual orientation is obtained precisely from masturbation and, paradoxically, not from the couple sexuality.
I add a corollary to the basic theorem: if the sex he did with you has not become the object of his masturbation fantasies then there is in practice the certainty that he is a latent homosexual but, I have to stress it, latent homosexuality is a rare thing. In the other hypothesis, if the memory of what he lived with you is instead the object of his masturbation fantasies, perhaps episodically, then you can think that you are facing a guy who is at least partially bisexual and who is in strong condition of sexual repression. If this guy is really a latent homosexual, well, either he wakes up by himself (something unlikely and in any case not predictable or controllable) or there is little to do, the situation will remain that of a friendship, perhaps episodically sexualized.
If instead a homosexual component really exists, well, then it would make sense, more for his own sake than for yours, to arrive at a clear discourse, because marriage for a bisexual means having to give up the other half of the sky, what isn’t certainly a simple thing, unless it is an almost straight bisexuality; if then his gay component was important (and the fact of having a girl, in conditions of social obligation is really not significant), i.e. if he was bisexual with a strong gay component or even a gay that has adapted to have a relationship with a girl (what is not so infrequent), then the marriage would be really to be avoided, because it would be like being shut up in a cage with the prospect of remaining there for a lifetime.
Then there is a third hypothesis, not to be neglected at all, that is that of the hetero-curious (and there are many), it is about men or guys, usually frustrated in their straight sexuality, who seek a gay contact exclusively on the sexual level, excluding any emotional implication, because their affectivity is fully dedicated to women. The hetero-curious are the biggest users of so-called gay pornography. The hypothesis that this guy is just a hetero-curious (who will always consider himself heterosexual and will consider his own gay sexual adventures only as adventures) finds support in the fact that, in your relationship, on his part, it is systematically underlined that his true sexuality is straight, and in from the fact, anything but marginal, that he asked you if you are active or passive, a question that is typical of the hetero-curious (of which are full of erotic chats) and that a true gay would not ask because gay sexuality is not an imitation of the straight one.
I summarize here for you a story I have seen closely and that best configures the relationship between a gay and a latent homosexual. We’ll call "G" the gay and "L" the latent gay.
L knows that G is gay. G has had several girls, and is known to be able to do a lot with women, girls themselves who have been with him say it, but he is not engaged and has never had a stable girlfriend. All his girls come from the same group as G. G and L go to the mountain sites together with the girls of the group. G and L are usually in the same room together. L is very uninhibited, when he is in the room with G he wears only the briefs, physical contact with G is frequent, tests of strength, fighting, etc., but also cuddles in the same bed. Over the days G becomes more enterprising and L lets him do and gets to get masturbated by G (but L doesn’t masturbate G).
G thinks that L is gay and after many uncertainties comes to the idea of making him explicitly understand it. G speaks clearly and the whole story ends, L leaves before the end of the holidays and disappears at all. For him, being masturbated by his friend was just an uninhibited game because on a conscious level his sexuality was radically hetero and it was precisely this that allowed him to behave so freely with his friend without particular problems. Therefore, maximum caution and above all, keep your feet on the ground! Be cautious with flights of fantasy!
So let's sum up. Maybe my answer may seem strange to you, but I would stay away from him, because if he's just a repressed, if he's a repressed gay, then ok, it makes sense, but if he's a repressed bisexual who wants to stay straight, well, even taking away the repression there is not much to be satisfied, because a bisexual will never build a strong and above all exclusive relationship with you.
The hypothesis that he is a repressed gay is the only one that could give you an adequate motivation to go on, but in that case he should also have the courage to overcome the things that repress him, perhaps not in public, but at least in private, and should begin to understand that going on with girls means enter a road that leads straight to marriage, which for a gay is the worst trap. If you stay away and he really cares about you, he will not let you go, but I wouldn't follow him, because to build something as a couple you have to want it in two! A hug.
Project
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| GAYS AND AVAILABLE GUYS WITH LATENT HOMOSEXUALITY |
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Posted by: gayprojectforum - 09-18-2018, 05:28 PM - Forum: Gays and sex
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It often happens that a gay guy creates a strong emotional relationship, sometimes with sexual implications, with guys who present themselves as straight, but don’t have the typical behavior of heterosexuals, i.e. with guys who demonstrate a certain sexual disposition towards gays; I refer to the hetero-curious guys, bisexuals, latent gays and repressed gays.
The order of these four categories is not accidental: the hetero-curious guys, who are very numerous, are properly hetero, but because of strong frustrations in their straight sexuality, they go in search of exclusively sexual adventures in the gay field; the bisexuals, much less numerous than gays, have a true gay sexuality and a true gay affectivity, well integrated, but also present a true hetero sexuality and a true hetero affectivity, bisexuality can present the two components, hetero and gay, in all the possible proportions; latent gays, who are very less numerous even than bisexuals, consider themselves exclusively hetero and behave in all respects as 100% hetero guys, even in masturbation, which is always hetero oriented, their homosexual tendencies are manifested in behaviors of considerable disinhibition with other guys, and also with other gay guys, the freedom of behavior reaches the point that a latent gay, considering himself 100% hetero, doesn’t feel any discomfort in getting involved in openly sexual games with gay friends, up to be masturbated by them, and this happens because these behaviors are not seen by latent gays as gay behavior but as sexual camaraderie; the gays repressed are instead fully gay on a conscious level, with a masturbation exclusively in gay key, who have adapted to live also relationships with girls, including sex, because pressed by families and the social environment, these guys are essentially forced to play the part of the hetero.
When for a guy sexuality is split from affectivity or when sexual orientation is not univocal, signs of discomfort may appear. We must bear in mind that the union of affectivity and sexuality in a relationship in which there is emotional and sexual reciprocity between two guys leads to psycho-sexual well-being and satisfaction in sexuality. When there is no real reciprocity in a couple relationship, there is the typical sense of frustration that gay guys who fall in love with straight guys know very well. In that case the discomfort comes from an objective "couple impossibility ". When the complementarity of affectivity and sexuality is lacking in one of the two partners, the discomfort is not originally interpersonal but is created in the first instance inside the subject, a clearly unresolved subject.
There are guys who, because of the heavy influences suffered through education, which has conveyed to them profound sexual taboos, despite experiencing homosexual drives, continue to live a straight sexual life. If for these guys, homosexuality remains under the limit of conscious thought, in these cases we speak of “latent homosexuality”.
Let us dwell now in particular on guys with latent homosexuality; they generally have characteristic traits:
1) They have a frenzied hetero sexual life, they have many girls and they change them often, and this increases the fame of these guys as heterosexuals, but they have never had a steady girl for long periods (years), what is typical of the heterosexuals. In other words, they live a frenetic sexuality with the girls but without constructing truly meaningful emotional relationships. Their affectivity is addressed elsewhere. Heterosexual sexuality experienced by guys with latent homosexuality is often unsatisfactory due to erectile impotence or difficulty in achieving orgasm. It should be emphasized that guys with latent homosexuality masturbate thinking about girls, which confirms them in their presumption of heterosexuality. These guys don’t have usually, not even partially, gay masturbation fantasies, their homosexuality is totally latent. That is, it is not lived on a conscious level.
2) They have an emotional life focused on a very small number of friends, all or almost male, and often have only one long-standing friend who is their real point of reference on an emotional level. This decisive friendship has such a weight that the same sexual choices of the guy with latent homosexuality, despite being in a hetero direction, are closely linked to the dominant friendship in the sense that the guy tends to choose the girl in the group frequented by the best friend, in this way on the occasions in which he meets the girl in public he doesn’t lose contact with his friend anyway. It should be emphasized that guys who are latent homosexuals often choose girls who are very friendly to their special friend. These guys sometimes fall in love with the girlfriends or the ex-girlfriends of their special friend.
3) The friendship between a guy with latent homosexuality and his special “hetero” friend often goes far beyond the boundaries of a common friendship between two straight guys. It is an emotional or even a loving friendship whose limits are dictated essentially by the hetero guy and are easily accepted by the guy with latent homosexuality. If the limits are narrow, the relationship, even seen from the outside, has no sexual meaning, that is, homosexuality remains totally latent.
4) A friendship between a guy with latent homosexuality and his special “gay” friend instead presents a completely different dynamic and this is what I intend to deal with later.
Let’s consider now two typical non-infrequent situations.
Case A
Two friends (whose friendship dated 30 years ago) both had heterosexual intercourses, both had been considered heterosexual for years and had always lived forms of emotional complicity only in a heterosexual key. Let's say that one of them, let's call him Mark, arrives at the awareness of his homosexuality through the most natural way, that is, falling in love with his friend, let's call him Andrew, who continues to show only a straight sexuality (latent homosexuality). In this case, the old relationship of friendship, on the side of the gay guy, acquires a new value and is experienced as a relationship of love and all the moments of intimacy that can occur between two straight friends, like the nudity in the showers of the gym, or sleeping in the same bed, will have for Mark a sexual value that will not have for Andrew. The dimension of intimacy can still increase at least within certain limits because Andrew's emotional attachment to Mark will lead Andrew to accept Mark's particularly free behavior without too many difficulties, and this is a sign of the explicit though unconscious sexual interest od Andrew towards Mark. In real situations of this type it is possible to come to true sexual games in which Andrew will accept "in the form of a game" even Mark's openly sexual behaviors. Andrew and Mark can take a shower together even going into erection and laughing at this fact, can cuddle themselves for hours on the couch or even in bed without openly sexual gestures, can live substantially the life of a gay couple with a limitation: sexuality, that must remain latent.
Case B
Two young guys (18/20 years old), friends from childhood, one (Mark) comes to recognize himself gay, while the other (Andrew) remains in a state of latent homosexuality. Mark falls in love with Andrew, the mutual disinhibition is stronger at the level of gestures than at the level of words. Mark and Andrew never talk about sex explicitly. Mark perceives Andrew's resistance to admit that the relationship that has established can have some homosexual meanings, on the other hand Andrew shows himself always available towards Mark, seeks him, sends him text messages, spends evenings with him in chat, tells him affectionate phrases that are formally in the limit of a tender friendship but that that Mark tends to interpret in another key. It happens in a completely unexpected way that Andrew lets himself go to a drift of situation increasingly gay, up to even accepting sexual contacts (intimate caresses) without any embarrassment, but without any attempt at reciprocity. Sexual intimacy can even become habitual and in these terms doesn’t create particular problems for Andrew who accepts it as something now normal (sexualized friendship). Andrea falls in love with girls who are Mark's friends, tries to create a group in which Mark is always involved and combines without apparent contradiction a straight couple sexuality with the sexual friendship towards Mark. Andrew's heterosexual sexuality is an assumption of principle and Andrew, while living daily sexual contacts with Mark, masturbates only thinking about girls.
In the case A there is no homosexual behavior of Andrew, in the case B Andrew is involved in real sexual activities with Mark but framed in the dimension of sexualized friendship and not of homosexuality. In both cases the guy conscious of his homosexuality (Mark) finds himself in situations of deep affective contact with his friend and of partial sexual contact. What pushes Mark (a gay guy) to continue his relationship with Andrew (a guy with latent homosexuality)? The possible answers are many:
1) Marco waits for Andrew to take autonomously an awareness of the situation, which in Mark's eyes is unequivocal.
2) Marco hopes to be able to take, in small steps, Andrew towards an explicitly gay sexuality.
3) Mark is in love with Andrew and is willing to sacrifice his sexuality in order to remain close to Andrew whose emotional warmth he cannot do without. In this regard, experience teaches some things which it is always good to take into account :
a) Latent homosexuality is generally not a stage that is a prelude to conscious homosexuality. Latent homosexuality can last and often lasts a lifetime. The exit from the latency is linked in most cases to absolutely new and unexpected factors that pose a guy quickly in front of reality, it is usually a meeting with people not previously known or unexpected episodes with a homosexual background that begin to be the object of masturbatory fantasies. This is often the first spark that leads to the exit from latent homosexuality. Generally the gay guy who falls in love with a guy in a state of latent homosexuality is extremely cautious for fear of losing him and this makes it more unlikely that the other guy can get out of latency.
b) Gay guys who fall in love with guys with latent homosexuality often say they are totally satisfied with the relationship they live but, going deeper, they realize that frustrations are many in the first place because a gay guy, in this situation, is forced to curb his own sexuality and then because there is no possibility of addressing the discourse explicitly. A guy with latent homosexuality reasons in all respects as a straight guy, in other words his homosexuality is unknown even to himself and manifests itself only in the amorous friendship that he interprets exclusively as a simple and deep friendship. The frustrations of gay guys involved in relationships of this kind last for years, they are forced to sublimate sexuality and to make a constant effort of self-control.
c) Within a couple consisting of a gay guy and a guy with latent homosexuality, precisely because it is impossible to get to an explicit dialogue on the subject of sexuality, the possibilities of misunderstanding and false interpretations are enormous. Basically the two guys decode the sexual gestures and behaviors in a completely different way, but the situation is much more complicated than that which is created between a gay and a heterosexual because the guy with latent homosexuality shows a very wide emotional availability and somehow even a certain sexual availability that confuses the gay guy. These relationships, precisely because of the availability of the guy with latent homosexuality, are initially very inviting and rewarding for a gay guy who expects his friend to show a clearly gay sexuality in short terms, however very rarely the expectations of the gay guy have the evolution that the gay guy wants. For the above it is good to take into account the time factor, considering that many gay guys have waited for many years and needlessly for their friend to came out of latent homosexuality.
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| LATENT HOMOSEXUALITY AND MARRIAGE |
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Posted by: gayprojectforum - 09-17-2018, 06:17 PM - Forum: Gay orientation
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This paragraph is the re-elaboration of a response to the message that appeared on the Gay Project guestbook and you can read here below.
"Hi, I would like to understand more about latent homosexuality and how it can be revealed. My husband, 43, would have recently discovered his bisexuality but the constant mutability and uncertainty of his cultural and professional choices, his attachment to me (also sexual, for years, and passionate) the involuntary and occasional aesthetic interest for other women, the coincidence, moreover, of his coming out in concomitance with the obvious need to take on more mature commitments compared to a past in which only I took charge of the common life project, always involving him, his chasing me when I walked away, make me feel a lot puzzled. I would painfully respect his choice, if I could believe that it is unavoidable but I suspect a semiconscious pretext. Our environment has always been free and open, we have always frequented gay friends, our dialogue was profound and he had no reason to hide for almost twenty years. I would be very grateful for an opinion."
I will try to answer on the basis of the experience gained in Gay Project, using an authentic documentation, consisting of pieces of e-mail that I have been authorized to publish. Let's start with a premise: with the expression "latent homosexuality" we mean a homosexuality of which there is no awareness. It is not a matter of consciously repressed homosexuality but of a reality that operates below the levels of consciousness and manifests itself through a series of phenomena that are interpreted by those who observe them in themselves on the basis of categories totally alien to homosexuality.
Let's move on to the examination of the first e-mail I received from a 43-year-old whom we will call Marco.
"Hello Project, I would like to ask you an opinion on some issues that gave me a lot of problems. I must make a necessary premise, I am a married man and I have a daughter almost 19 years old, I have always been heterosexual, the girls have always looked for me and I liked them very much, unfortunately sometimes I’m really stressed and maybe there is a bit of performance anxiety, so sometimes I live sexuality in a way not quite serene, but with my wife I'm fine, she cares about me very much, with her I feel at ease and then it is not something essentially sexual we really love each other. Since I started being with her I don’t feel anymore the need to masturbate because I have sex with her quite often, on the other hand masturbation has never been a fixed idea for me, I was able to do without it even before.
When I started my story with my wife I would never have believed I could live sexuality with her, that is, the thrust I felt towards her was not that, then things came slowly by themselves, I had a little fear that vanished over time and now things are going well.
As for friends, I also have gay friends and I have no preclusion of principle against them. I still do sports, not competitive, I have the opportunity to see my teammates naked a lot of times but I'm completely indifferent, I never thought I could have sex with a guy. I have a friend with whom I feel great, a straight friend, a teammate, we often talk and the dialogue between us is very nice, he tells me about his emotions and I talk to him about everything, including sexual problems, it happens that we often go out in four, I, he and our wives, I often talk to this friend but for me his presence has not and has never had any other meaning, he is a friend and that's it. I told you at the beginning that sometimes I feel a bit tired and I think that this compromises a bit my relationship with my wife, sometimes when I'm with her I remember the problems of work and I don’t like this, because this makes me loose the best moments, but it will pass, I'm sure of it."
Let's move on to the analysis of the contents of this passage which is the beginning of the first e-mail I received from Mark.
Heterosexual phenomenology (weakness of hetero sexuality)
Mark has or may sometimes have problems with erection when he has sex with his wife, tends to get distracted during hetero sexual intercourse, he lives heterosexual sexuality as a response to his wife's initiatives, he didn’t masturbate (or did not do it often) thinking of his girlfriend even when he hadn’t frequent intercourses with her, tends to spend more time with his friends or with a friend of his than with his wife. For him, heterosexual sexuality doesn’t have the value of a primary instinct but plays the role of a complement of an emotional relationship, that is, sexual interest is not the first push to create an affective contact, but, on the contrary, sexual availability derives from the primary emotional choice. Marco does not have in mind a physical type of girl who arouses immediate sexual interest in him, that is, he does not have a female sexual archetype. In adolescence he was always looked for by girls (he doesn’t say he was looking for them) with whom he had some form of sexual contact but didn’t take the initiative. Adolescent masturbation was not frequent.
Homosexual phenomenology (absence of gay sexuality)
Mark has never had sexual reactions related to the presence of another guy, he attends gyms, swimming pools or changing rooms and takes the shower together with others guys without any sexual response, he doesn’t feel any embarrassment in addressing topics that deal with homosexuality, he also has gay friends with whom he has a relationship very similar to what he has with his straight friends, he was never even remotely touched by the idea of being able to masturbate thinking of a boy.
We continue now with the text of Mark's e-mail.
Elements of crisis of the hetero identity and acceptance of bisexuality
"Project, you will tell me, then where is the problem? And here I start not to understand well. I love my wife, I've shared everything with her, she's a notable woman and did a lot for me, she even went against her family to marry me, because the family wanted her to marry another guy (whom her parents knew) but she imposed herself and we got married. I want to emphasize that it was not a choice of opportunism at all but a marriage of love, especially in the early days, I shared wonderful years with her, I needed nothing else, when we got married I was 23 and she was 21, the following year our daughter was born and I could not have been happier than so. I've been married for 20 years and for 19 of these 20 years I've had only my wife in mind, I've never cheated on my wife, such a thought never crossed my mind, then suddenly a situation presented itself that upset me.
We hosted in our house a nephew of my wife, a guy 22 years old, let's call him Luke, a nice guy, I think my daughter fell in love with him, and so far there would be no problem. The fact is that one night when my wife was not there because she went to her mother, I did one of the rare erotic dreams (a wet dream) of my life and I dreamed of Luke, I dreamed that he wanted to be hugged by me, and we ended up to the intimate caresses and I have arrived to the orgasm. In the dream it was all very nice, but when I woke up and I remembered what I had dreamed of, the world collapsed on me, I felt dirty both because it was a homosexual dream and because Luke is 22, almost my daughter's age. And then I was thinking of my wife, I was wondering if I should talk to her or not about such a thing and I felt really bad. Then I told myself that dreams don’t mean anything but this was not enough for me, because in the dream I had experienced violent sexual emotions that I had never felt before, as a kind of super sexuality.
In the morning I saw Luke, who called me uncle, I felt like a traitor to the trust of that guy, even a kind of pedophile, I felt very bad but I forced myself not to show anything of what I carried within. In the evening my wife returned and we made love, it was beautiful, I would say that I seemed to be back in the early days of our marriage, I felt comforted because between me and my wife nothing had changed and if it had changed had changed for the better. I felt the nightmare of being homosexual less looming. When Luke came back to his house I felt relieved, as if the danger was over. However, I didn’t say anything to my wife because I didn’t want to shake her and also because I thought it was a passing thing. For two months I returned to my usual life.
Then, during the summer, on vacation, I found myself with a guy slightly older than Luke and I realized that I was led to observe him, he seemed beautiful, smiling, with a smile that I never saw in a girl, I remembered his voice, his gestures, his big, beautiful hands, with perfect skin. This guy, whom I will call Silvio, became fond of me, he came to our house by the sea, my wife thought he was interested in our daughter but it was not like that. Silvio came to stay with me and I was fine with him, I looked for different ways to spend some time with him, for a while it was very pleasant but then I started to be afraid to push myself too far. There has never been anything between us and Silvio treated me like a father but for me things were not exactly like that. I didn’t think of him in sexual terms and this made me feel comfortable, I tried to put aside the idea of being in love with Silvio but in fact it was so, but I repeat, no sexual fantasy about him, never, I don’t know, maybe I was repressing myself, but Silvio made me feel good. Also this time I didn’t say anything to my wife and basically I had nothing to say to her, there had never been anything between me and him, not even in a dream. But with Silvio I was less afraid of being able to discover that I was bisexual, let's say that I took it into account at least in the abstract. I don’t speak of being homosexual but bisexual because with my wife sexual intercourse were still going well or at least passably.
In the fall a new practitioner about 25 years old came to my studio. I started doing sexual thoughts on him and my terror has begun again. I ended up to ask to be transferred to another office, but then I needed to see him and I went back where he was but he never noticed anything, even with this guy there has never been anything
but he was the first guy on whom I made erotic fantasies, in one way I was scared, but for the other I said to myself: why not? After all, such a thing doesn’t destroy my marriage, these guys don’t even know anything about it, so why deprive me of something that basically doesn’t hurt anyone? I'm bisexual, ok, I take note of it. And in the end these things are all in my imagination because it doesn’t come to my mind that I could put in crisis in my marriage and the relationship with my daughter for a sexual fantasy.
Let's say that this is the stage where I am now, my real fear is that of escalation, that these things, which didn’t exist before and that I have gradually accepted, can then evolve presenting me the bill and maybe pushing me in some adventure that could put me in great difficulty. Until here I feel like accepting what is happening to me but I’m terrified that it does not stop here. My wife does not know anything about this and among other things I don’t know how to make her understand something like that."
Beyond the example I have reported, situations occur in which the maintenance of the balance as it was before the emergence of homosexuality is objectively impossible. The evolution in those cases doesn’t go towards a bisexuality predominantly heterosexual, in which it is possible to contain homosexuality in the limit of episodic gay masturbation, but towards forms of exclusive homosexuality that undermine marriage and inevitably lead to separation.
In the case of Mark (the one cited above) the wife is completely unaware, but in cases where latent homosexuality evolves into exclusive homosexuality the role of the wife becomes critical because in these situations the husband intends marriage as a trap and the conjugal relationship keeps only negative aspects.
In general, husbands who come out of situations of latent homosexuality speak with their wives only if they feel the impossibility of continuing the marriage bond and in these cases, even if the husbands qualify themselves as bisexuals, it is to be believed that they are instead exclusive homosexuals.
It must be said that generally the wives consider the behavior of the husband as a result of a choice, but this doesn’t correspond to truth, it is instead the emergence of a latent sexuality, which often entails, for those who live these situations, states of deep discomfort.
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| GAY GUYS WHO SEE STRAIGHT FRIENDS AS GAY LOVERS |
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Posted by: gayprojectforum - 09-16-2018, 07:27 PM - Forum: True gay stories
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Hello Project, I was pleased to talk with you in the chat, last night, it was an unexpected thing but very positive for me. In practice, the first time that I could talk freely about myself and my sexuality. I was struck by your answers, always very calm, that is, answers that tended to calm me down and make me notice the normality of so many things that seemed strange to me. I decided to send you this email to go even more specifically. I changed the references of the places and the names of the people, but the facts are exactly those that happened to me, so if you want you can post the email on the forum. I proceed by chronological order.
I've always been gay in an exclusive way, that is, I have wanted for years, since I was eleven or twelve, to be in sexual intimacy with males, with young peers or a little older. The fantasies of masturbation were always and exclusively gay, but I also had a girlfriend, I even had sex with this girl, we masturbated each other and about ten times we have also had complete intercourse, but I never felt heterosexual. I could even have sex with a girl, but that was not what I wanted. If I could have chosen whether to do it with a girl or a guy I wouldn’t have had the slightest doubt, but the girls wanted me and courted me ruthlessly, practically they offered “what they had to offer” on a silver plate, while of guys I couldn’t even see the shadow.
Even when I was with my girlfriend my masturbation was always and only with gay fantasies, I tried to force myself to use hetero fantasies but it was just a way to rape me, and then honestly I was not in love with my girlfriend, it bothered me when she would send me text messages or when she phoned me and started to chat and didn’t finish it anymore.
When I was with my girlfriend I was 18-19 and it started because I could not say no and, I must say, the thing, a little (but very little) she intrigued me. The first times we had sex, just masturbation, I studied on the internet what to do (I know it's absurd but it is so), then when it came to having complete intercourse, my tool ... refused to do its work, but in the end I succeeded, but, you know, it was a very poor thing. I think that for a straight guy who penetrates a girl, especially the first times, ejaculation arrives early and is powerful, at least that's what I've always heard, for me it was not so, I didn't have a spontaneous orgasm and the orgasm came only later when she was masturbating me. And I must say that many times I asked myself what I was doing there, anyway we had sex non too much rarely. And it happened about ten times. She was happy and just didn’t realize that the thing told me almost nothing.
Now I am 27 years old, I graduated and I found a job. Towards that girl I didn’t feel repulsion but I felt that having sex with her wasn't something that belonged to me, and anyhow with another girl I would never have gone, not even at that time, with that girl the opportunity had been created and it has been however unpleasant to break the relationships, because there were resentments, but I was already very determined to do everything to never find myself in a similar situation again.
However, now it's been over for eight years. And then, once the story is closed with that girl, I didn’t want to know any other girl just because I wanted a guy. I spent the night chatting in search of the right guy, but frankly there was no one who seemed to me the right guy. That was my nightlife, the day life was that of the classic straight guy or rather the classic guy without sexual interests at least apparently, dedicated only to study and friends.
And here I begin to get to the heart of the matter. At university I got to know a lot of guys. First we talk a bit about the university, then we start studying together, then we get to know each other better, there's pizza together, the sport, which is fundamental for us, then we start going on holiday together, or at least start going out together on Sunday, in short, we become friends and, let's say, the selection of friends is something automatic. It starts with a small group that becomes increasingly smaller and more tied. Let's say that when I was twenty I had many friends, but weren't real friends , while at 23 or 24 I had less friends but between us the relationships were much closer. Let's say that around the age of 25 a group of 4 guys was formed, who by now seemed inseparable.
We used to have lunch one day at parents' house of one of us and another day at the parents' house of another. Our friendship was a public fact and accepted by our families. We had known each other for study purposes and we could have given us a hand over the university. One day it occurred that Laurence (obviously a changed name) told us that we could go to the gym together, in one amateur group of volleyball, it was a sport that all four of us liked and we enrolled in the local volleyball association. Here I have to open a parenthesis. The four of us were fine together, none of us four had a girlfriend at the moment, but all four of us (including myself) had had a girlfriend, but none of us spoke of girls or disco.
It was then that I began to wonder what was common among us that made us feel so good together and I began to get the idea that it was really the fact that we didn’t talk about girls and that we were very often among us. But among us the atmosphere was very loose, we were not four gruff types but four funny guys who have fun acting like crazy and saying bullshit.
With others, or if others there were, we never did so, but between us yes. From time to time we ended up (always between us) talking about sexually, but not about girls but only about masturbation.
We begin to attend the gym, for me a real shock, I had never been in a gym and seeing all those naked guys walking around so casually, as if it were the most normal thing in the world, led my heart to 120 pulses per minute, and then there were my three friends and I could see them naked, even if for obvious reasons I had to be careful not to check them too much. There were also jokes about our attributes, but jokes just to laugh.
With the passage of time, going to training had become a habitual thing for me, or almost habitual, because sometimes new guys arrived that some were really beautiful and I had to force myself not to look at them. One day when a particularly handsome new guy came, I saw one of my friends watching him and I too was surprised by my friends while I was looking at him. And there began the jokes, but also this time, very simple things, without malice, a real game.
Now, my friend Mark (false name), who had turned to look at the beautiful guy, was also the one of the three that I liked best: tall, blond, with an intelligent smile. So I started putting together the mosaic tiles: he doesn’t talk about girls, he jokes about masturbation and not about girls, and he turns to look at a beautiful naked guy . . . what does it mean? There were enough arguments to reach the conclusion: Mark is gay! It seemed to me that having seen him peek at the beautiful guy in the locker room was equivalent to a full coming coming out. And that's how I began to lose my head for Mark. I tried to put together everything I could know about him (I had never done it before) I explored his facebook, that of his friends, I did all the possible research but there wasn’t even the shadow of a girls.
The idea that he was gay became more and more a certainty and at the same time grew in me the idea to try something with him, to tell him that I had fallen in love with him and that he had become my fixed idea. Making a speech like that, however, was not easy, indeed it was practically impossible.
In a short holiday of us four friends in the mountains, Mark and I happened (not casually) in the same room, I was anxious at the higher level but I wasn't able to start to put in practice my projects. One day that we had to go out for an excursion we woke up late and we had a shower together, with a lot of reciprocal touchings, I was going in bad erection but he told me that we had to prepare in a hurry and with a mischievous smile, added: "We'll talk about it tonight!" That sentence hammered my brain all day. I was telling myself that I had seen right and that it was gay and that I could not go wrong, because I see him as a gay just looking at him.
Finally the excursion ends, in the evening we go to dinner and I cannot wait for the dinner to end to be able to go to the room with Mark, but another of my friends proposes the disco and Mark enthusiastically accepts. I was uncomfortable: he evidently didn’t even remember what had happened in the morning. We go to the disco, the other two friends start dancing like crazy but not in pairs, simply in a group, but Mark remains close to me, it is the usual Mark: smart, nice, maybe gay, on the other hand how can you think that a guy is straight if he goes to the disco and doesn’t even dance with a girl?
At a certain point he looks at me in the eyes and tells me: "What is it?" Something wrong? "I say no and he replies: "Do you want us to go back to the hotel?" Of course I tell him no, but he looks at me again and tells me: "I didn't forget!" That sentence puts my brain in motion. After twenty minutes we were back at the hotel. We go up to the room, lock the door and he throws me on the bed and start to tickle me. We played like two kids: tickling, cushions, doing the fight, obviously all for fun, then I realize that he's excited. I throw him on the bed and start touching him and he lets me do.
Now I don’t want to go into details as it is usual in red light movies but in short we arrive to masturbate each other and I don’t think at all that this created problems for him. I would have kissed him but I didn’t take the initiative nor did he. Later we have been talking but not about sex, but about when we were children and how we spent our holidays. I was happy, it was one of the most exciting moments of my life, and yet, in the following days I realized that for him the sense of what we had done was very relative.
He never returned to the subject, but not because it had been removed, simply because it had been just a moment, and that moment had passed. We remained friends, even best friends, but two years have passed and that episode has never been repeated. Even now he doesn’t have a girlfriend nor I have a boyfriend. The courage to ask him if he was gay I didn’t have it at that time nor I would have it now, and on the other hand he doesn’t ask me questions.
Why is it so damn hard to speak clearly. If he were gay, would he try again? I think so, but he didn’t and nevertheless now I still feel attracted to him very strongly, he’s the sexiest guy I ever met, is my ideal boyfriend, but this is not enough to make it really my boyfriend. Many of my illusions are completely faded or are being fading over time, in short he is a good guy, I love him, but I don’t think he is gay, and to get to this conclusion it took me years. Today I believe and fear that our strange half-way relationship will go on and prevent us from living our lives as we would have liked.
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