CHAT WITH MARK


Mark writes: hello Project are you there?

Project writes: Hello! Nice to meet you! I read your mail

Mark writes: my pleasure, first of all thank you for answering me so quickly

Project writes: don’t mention it! In fact I was late because today there was a storm in chat

Mark writes: I guess, there are many people who have problems of this kind, sentimental I mean

Project writes: yes, look, even working 10 hours a day I can barely keep up with everything

Mark writes: anyway your email has been very important. It made me understand things that I wouldn’t have understood by myself

Project writes: look, in the matter concerning sexuality the key things are three: first of all never letting anxiety dominate you, never testing yourself just to evaluate your reactions, never think that there are a priori definitions to which we must correspond, the fundamental thing is serenity, true sexuality has only one enemy: anxiety

Mark writes: well then I must struggle hard because I have always been anxious especially in emotional ties, I tie myself with very few people because the biggest fear for me is that of abandonment

Project writes: not only for you, I would say that for all serious guys it is so. Mark, as I told you in my email, what you write doesn’t make me think you’re gay

Mark writes: many people tell me so, but they also tell me that during this period I have accentuated my gay component, setting apart, at least partially, the straight one, and I admit that I did so, but in the email I sent you I collected and summarized all my doubts, while I didn’t talk about my certainties, for example that while I was with that guy I felt the need for physical sex with a woman, and that the same happened even when I masturbated

Project writes: this fact only confirms that, if you are not 100% straight, the gay component is however clearly the minor share. But which gay guy who has a boyfriend would masturbate thinking of a girl?

Mark writes: or things such as the fact that I don’t live anxiously the friendship with a gay, indeed I have to say that I don’t feel anxiety at all because many of the gays I know are serious, I really like talking to them but I don’t feel any sexual drive towards them.

Project writes: this is a further confirmation that there is very little gay component Mark writes: then add, in the relationship I had with the guy, the component due to the lack of the male reference figure, that I had replaced with him Project writes: how old was the guy?

Mark writes: he was my age but was much more mature than me

Project writes: I don’t see him very much as a replacement male figure anyway, if he had been 10 years older, perhaps it could have been still possible.

Mark writes: the problem is that in him I saw first and foremost (and I strongly tried to save) the friendship that bound us because we began to talk and to get closer precisely when, after a friend of mine had lost his father, I relived what I had lived years before, namely the trauma of abandonment for the death of my father. I was clearly looking for a male figure that could somehow act also as a brother (I don’t even have older brothers)

Project writes: if this guy, despite being your age, had a reassuring value for you, at the limit ... as a brother, ok, it’s possible.

Mark writes: I add that at that time I was coming out of a black period during which I felt emotionally quite alone and that the more I talked to him the more the desire to end up together came out. While the interest in him was growing up, at the beginning only at emotional level and then also at sexual one, I realized that he was becoming a reference model almost absolute for me in the sense that I wanted to be like him, I almost venerated him.

Project writes: you say that for this guy you have felt the emotional and even the sexual interest growing up, but how did you realize that for you he was not just a friend? Did it all come spontaneous or did you feel it strange and maybe you tried to reject it?

Mark writes: reject it no, I would say that I followed the evolution of my emotions, the desire to hug him or rather to make him embrace me, to be pampered by him, at first a bit like a loving father does with his child, only many weeks after, I unconsciously started to feel it as something sexual, when I realized that nobody mentally managed to get close to me as he did, I thought that he really had understood me, then even if I had strong male friendships, his friendship was linked to the fact that he had accepted me as I was (only later he tried to change me)

Project writes: what do you mean?

Mark writes: I have some skeletons in the closet, one of these is that I come from a family of those that are object of suspect and this for me was always a very big shame, when I told him this thing, he accepted me, he also accepted what I called diversity, a point of distance from the affection of the other people because, since always, even if my family is questionable, or rather doesn’t have a good reputation, I have always been the guy who sees in the degree and in the education the goal to be achieved in order to get rid of the shame of being the son of questionable people. He accepted me, in fact he found me nice, interesting, sensitive and at the same time free from mental schemes, he considered me almost as a progressive. I felt accepted and somehow linked to this person who had managed to go beyond what many people unfortunately couldn’t overcome. You can understand that having a person who finally made me feel good and with whom I felt at ease could only please me. For a guy who has always lived his sexuality related to affectivity, it was natural that the sincere affection I felt for him could turn into love

Project writes: it seems that really the thing was born in a true emotional climate

Mark writes: yes

Project writes : a question, but before this guy, how did you perceive your sexuality? That is, has the gay attraction began with him or there have been previous episodes with other guys?

Mark writes: please, define what you mean by attraction

Project writes: did you try, before him, sexual urges and strong affective interest for other guys?

Mark writes: mmm ... no affective interest, sexual impulses like the desire to kiss or embrace or make love with a man . . . yes . . . or better no

Project writes: I didn’t understand Mark writes: affectively I have never felt bonded to other guys if not for normal friendship, and I not even felt sexual impulses such as wanting to hug, kiss, shake hands and so on for a guy, no . . . never Project writes: when you met that guy how old were you?

Mark writes: 22 or rather 21 Project writes: and up to 21/22 years your masturbation had been exclusively in hetero key?

Mark writes: yes 

Project writes: this is a very important thing that still confirms the idea that there is a very little gay component

Mark writes: I must say that I also tried to masturbate thinking of a guy then, but I didn’t get excited

Project writes: these are all elements that go in the same direction and at 22 sexuality is already well defined and was totally straight

Mark writes: but I must say that some think that I was a bit effeminate from the beginning and that’s why I felt the anxiety of being gay, anyway never repressed, sometimes I tried to force myself concentrating on guys and trying to enjoy such fantasies but the only thing I achieved, at most, was that objectively the guy seemed nice to me, but as for sensations nothing at all

Project writes: very clear

Mark writes: that is, I started to doubt because in my kind ways and in my privacy some saw the characteristics of the gays

Project writes: yes, okay but the speech doesn’t make sense

Mark writes: I know. But you know how it is, they tell it today and tell it tomorrow . . .

Project writes: a gay is a guy who feels emotional and sexual attraction to guys, and being gay has nothing to do with the fact that people expect you to be so

Mark writes: I know

Project writes: it is something that strictly affects the emotional and sexual sphere and not the social one

Mark writes: then there is the fact that when they asked me if I was gay, a bit for challenge and a little because I didn’t like to answer questions that I felt too much intimate, I answered ”for the moment no, maybe later, who knows”, but this is not the important thing, anyway I have always experienced homosexuality as something that doesn’t frighten me at all and prejudices frighten me even less.

Project writes: yes, ok, but not being afraid of homosexuality, having gay friends and so on doesn’t mean being gay

Mark writes: among other things, to underline that homosexuality doesn’t frighten me at all I have to say that I often find a serious gay guy much more like me than a macho but I don’t want to fall into the gay-artist paradigm

Project writes: just like many gay guys get along well with some of their straight friends much more than with some gay friends of theirs

Mark writes: there are gay guys with whom I can talk freely about my true political interests, art and history

Project writes: ok, let’s go back to the guy, so in such a serious emotional climate, you who were not afraid of homosexuality have come to a sexual contact with him, ok, and did such a contact create problems, feelings of guilt or things like that?

Mark writes: the feelings of guilt were born only because then I put myself with a girl and for more than a year I kept the story with that guy totally hidden.

Project writes: feelings of guilt towards the guy or the girl?

Mark writes: towards her, the girl, the guy is a demented born, damn him, excuse the outburst

Project writes: why did the relationship with that guy change?

Mark writes: I gave him so much, he didn’t accept what he felt for me, but I was willing, at least I think so

Project writes: Do you mean he felt hetero?

Mark writes: yes and no Project writes: I didn’t understand

Mark writes: he said he was straight, I don’t have the gay radar so I cannot tell if he was really gay, I just know that he felt much more repulsion than me towards gay intercourse, I have to say the truth, perhaps he instilled in me the feeling of disgust at that time for what was or seemed to be really inside me, because to convince himself that he wasn’t gay, he needed to believe that I too wasn’t gay

Project Writes: who of the two led the other slowly towards gay sexuality?

Mark writes: we got there together, I was the most uninhibited in the sense that I was not interested in the judgment of others nor I was afraid of doing something that I would have been blamed for, I wanted to live in serenity the affection I felt for him and that’s why I had no longer moral problems

Project writes: in essence more than a real sexual interest it was a sexual drift not foreseen but accepted, at least by you and less than him

Mark writes: then, since his frustration with what was happening had bothered me a bit, and anyway I felt that in our relationship I lacked the female physicality (I told you that even if I don’t consider sex too much important, I’m not asexual and I live platonic love up to a certain point) I started having real relationships with girls, in particular with one, with whom, in addition to feeling physically attracted, I noticed a certain mental reciprocal understanding, but always thinking that if he had wanted to take the big step towards me I would have followed him then it must be said that a bond as strong as the one I had with him I didn’t want it to end, so, after a soft aut aut (like ”if you go with that girl our relationship will inevitably change, you will neglect me and I will have to turn away from you”) I could not think of a life without his presence, I interrupted my search for ”sexual” and ”affective” pleasure with the girls, dedicating myself to him, accepting ”toads” like: ”Wait for me, I must first try with girls” or ”We must stay only friends” and then in October he started to break away from me, he said I was sticky and stressed, so we decided only to stay friends, but in December, after he deceived me (in the sense that I wanted him to be present at my confirmation, he promised it but didn’t do it), I asked him for explanations and he told me that he didn’t want to be my best friend anymore, but that, if it had been good for me, we would have been friends within a group. I had sacrificed so much for him and also inhibited my hetero drives because of him and had started a psychological therapy of self-acceptance of being homosexual, nevertheless I decided to permanently break the relationship with him and now we still barely say goodbye to each other

Project writes: but also all this story seems rather an experience ”to try” in a pleasant affectionate climate, at least at the beginning, of course, that then took ”very relatively” a sexual meaning

Mark writes: later I started to deepen the friendship with the girl, until this afternoon when I told her that, even in my identity crises, even as a gay, I could never live without having her close to me as my girlfriend and that I was giving myself completely to her (always in the grip of my crisis) and she had the power to determine my life. I know I have exaggerated, life is mine and belongs to me only, but the simple idea that I can lose such a rare good (as she is) makes me live the tension of not having a future. Today I also said to myself out loud ”I’m gay” just because she told me that in order to start our relationship again she wanted me to clarify what I am and because I’m too honest with her I said I am gay because I don’t want to deceive myself in the sense that I don’t want to be heterosexual if I’m not but at the same time I cannot tell you that I’m ”gay convinced”

Project writes: I would say certainly you are not

Mark writes: believe me, sometimes these days, I wanted to be gay because, excuse my frankness, but I find being gay easier than being bisexual, and it’s paradoxical, certainly this is because usually one tries to take refuge in bisexuality to hide his homosexuality, but I wanted to shelter my sexuality in homosexuality

Project writes: direct question: but now is your masturbation totally dedicated to your girlfriend?

Mark writes: mmm ... yes, I would say yes, when I masturbated thinking of him it was only because I wanted to recover the feelings I felt for him and if lately I tried to excite myself thinking of guys I did it only to understand what I was, but I have to say something, 70% of my masturbation I do it to relieve the anxiety, I consider it a good anti-stress

Project writes: you have said it in your email Mark writes: what? Ah yes I remember, yes yes, not because I don’t have a sexual desire, it is that masturbation is relaxing and often has no subject, it’s just a mechanical act (degrading I know)

Project writes: can you find a motivation for your only physical masturbation and without fantasies?

Mark writes: it relaxes me, I’ve always lived it like that, you know some say an apple a day keeps the doctor away, for me masturbating every now and then is a release from stress that can be because of the university, problems with the girl, within the family, and I come to the absurd that I can even masturbate while I study for an exam, it’s strange, I know

Project writes: well, in a similar situation there are few sexual fantasies

Mark writes: in fact, 70% of my masturbation is linked to the simple opportunity to do it even without a sexual desire, simply because handling my dick makes me feel more cheerful, after, and relaxed. 30% is instead related to what I do with my girlfriend and if you don’t mind listening to descriptions, I tell you that often when I do it thinking of her in the end the prevailing idea is that it would have been more satisfying if she had been there. That’s all. Anxiety is perhaps the element that pushes me more to think of labeling me and doesn’t allow me to live my relationship serenely.

Project writes: I’d like to tell you something

Mark writes: tell me

Project writes: if before, only from the email, I had thought that you could be bisexual with a strong hetero propensity, after talking with you in chat I’m more and more convinced that you have nothing gay. That is, to date, you have a 70% neutral masturbation, and totally straight for the rest, so no trace of gay fantasies; before the story with the guy you were 100% hetero, and the story with the guy doesn’t even seem a sexual story but only a friendly relationship, and maybe a need of affection that became sexualized, but I don’t find the typical way of reacting of the gay guys, your affectivity is now totally polarized on your girl and from what you say it seems just (and I see no reason to question it) that you are satisfied of the relationship even on the sexual level, in conclusion, apart from the anxiety, I see nothing real that leads me to think that you are homosexual not even at a minimum level

Mark writes: well, yes

Project writes: you have just the way of behaving of a typical straight guy and a of straight guy not frustrated. I don’t see doubts of sexual orientation in objective terms, I don’t want to diminish things that may seem to you to be problematic but being gay with the things you live now but also with the story of the guy as you lived it, has very little to do

Mark writes: however there is another thing that I have always in mind about my sexuality since I lived the story with the guy and it is that I have gay friends, ok, and if I happen to see something sexual between two guys, the memory brings me to what I’ve done and I feel (now, after I engaged with my girlfriend) a bit strange, sometimes at least, maybe rarely, and it depends not so much on the gesture but on the sexual tension that I perceive between the two guys, I can also get hard, but it also happens if I see something sexual between two normal hetero partners or two lesbians, what excites me is not what I’m seeing but the feeling of sexual tension that I perceive between the two protagonists

Project writes: did you ever use pornography to masturbate?

Mark writes: yes, but it’s not a very developed side.

Project writes: only straight porn?

Mark writes: to test what I felt with that guy I also saw some sequences of gay porn but for example the naked body of the man or the man who masturbates had no effect on me, I saw gay porn (keep in mind that curiosity is anyway a side that distinguishes me) mainly because those things seemed to me a little strange or better very strange. I also saw orgies and there I sincerely closed the porn video, feeling badly disgusted, not so much by the protagonists but because I don’t think I’m the guy for the ménage à trois or even more

Project writes: but, you know, pornography with real sexuality has very little to do, anyway I’m more and more convinced that you have nothing to do with gays, in the things you say there is nothing that makes my bell ring.

Mark writes: yes, in fact, I am enough anti-pornography because the porn gives an image quite distorted of sex and love. I’m not a puritan and, I think you’ve got it, but I’m a bit romantic

Project writes: those gays who in practice don’t have the opportunity to find a guy use a lot of pornography, it is a heavy conditioning and not perceived as such and leads them, especially the younger guys, to an imitative sexuality and not at all emotional. in what you say there is one thing that strikes me a lot and I really appreciate a lot and it is the fact that in all cases, for you, sexuality and affection have come together, there was never dissociation, which is instead a very common feature. I mean that in what you say there is a serious way of conceiving sexuality, which is the right one, that is the affective one

Mark writes: I am not puritan, I have had sex without love, but now, after my first sexual experience made without love, I’ll link indissolubly the emotional sphere to the sexual one. I have no doubts.

Project writes: Mark, I think that you can really live your heterosexuality without any problem 

Mark writes: thank you very much

Project writes: I tell you and I am convinced of it

Mark writes: and thanks again for the chat  

Project writes: sometimes I talk with guys who want to be told that they are straight, but in fact they are not, for you is precisely the objectivity that sets for a clear hetero orientation.

Mark writes: I needed this conversation

Project writes: so be quiet!

Mark writes: ok, I will be one of the few cases of guys who want to be told that they are gay ...

Project writes: don’t see ghosts that are not there! ... let me say that this discourse didn’t help you clarify things about sexual your orientation that were already clear but to put aside anxiety hearing a voice different from yours, basically a confirmation

Mark writes: well yes, I must admit, I wanted to hear from a gay (who better than him!) what I could be and in the choice I have chosen one of those who seemed to say things very directly

Project writes: I thank you, I’m glad you think so!

Mark writes: well, I must say that before I contacted you I read many of your posts and in many of them I saw that you used to speak strongly and I’ll tell you that the fact that you don’t use too much the category of bisexuality made me lean towards you, just because I knew that you would have been very direct and hard if necessary, or better, rather objective than hard, not politically correct.

Project writes: I tell you that the ”real” bisexuals certainly exist but are not many, they are not as numerous as gays, there are bisexuals with periodic trend, i.e. people who for years have been perfect heterosexuals and who become perfect gays for years and then change again. ”Contemporary or intermediate bisexuality” often exists at transitory level in the sense that you see it in the phases of increasing awareness of being gay, we can see it even in full adult age, when a guy recognizes his being gay far beyond adolescence, but this bisexuality lasts six months, a year at most, and then sexuality polarizes. Except for very particular situations, at your age, sexuality it is already polarized for quite some time. Of course, being bisexual is much more complicated than being gay. I have seen bisexuals with periodic trend that in hetero phase got married and had children, then passed in the gay phase, they left the family and went with a man they liked, to go, years later, with another girl, these things are really destructive, but are very rare, but you have nothing to do with bisexuals.

Mark writes: yes, in fact, my fear was just that in being in the middle I would not have created a stability for me but above all I feared to hurt other people

Project writes: an intermediate bisexual is a perpetual dissatisfied and he would never say what you say about your girlfriend, at least not so convincingly. A bisexual with periodic trend lives very bad periods of transition and has long periods of stability lasting for years and in those periods he is or clearly straight or clearly gay. Frankly everything you say is typically hetero both at affective and sexual level, so, putting anxiety apart (anxiety leads to fear of ghosts that don’t exist), you have absolutely no reason for uncertainty

Mark writes: thank you very much, you have been very helpful and if my experience can help someone else you can post this conversation on the forum

Project writes: tell me what I can publish and I will gladly do it 

Mark writes: there are no names or places, neither in the email nor in the conversation, if you want to publish also this part, the important thing is that you change the name.

Project writes: of course!

Mark writes: after all, it is a beautiful love story with my girlfriend, and also a betrayed friendship.

Project writes: yes and I think it can have a value for several people.

Mark writes: in the end helping someone is always a good thing

Project writes: thanks for the permission, it will take a little time to rearrange everything but I will certainly do it shortly

Mark writes: and I especially appreciate you, you’re really a great person

Project writes: this flatters me!

Mark writes: and if I knew you in person almost I would kneel in a sign of reverence

Project writes: but come on! Don’t tease me!

Mark writes: believe me, I know how difficult it is for gay people to understand and accept their homosexuality I told you I have gay friends and I see them, and a person who can help to facilitate everything can only do well because the family can lack understanding, and it is quite common, I thank my family, perhaps my parents have many faults but as soon as I have confessed my doubts they have only ascertained that I was acting well alone, without mental conditioning, the only thing I heard them repeating was that I should never be ashamed of what I was and whatever I had done if my conscience was clean; and I must also thank my girlfriend, she, with her love, waits patiently for me to escape from this impasse.

Project writes: a sign that really she loves you!

Mark writes: I found a jewel of rare beauty and my love is reciprocated, she is a great person that must take charge of these thoughts. Project, I know you have also other people and you have to help them too, so now I leave you

Project writes: then good luck and above all I wish you to be able to live your heterosexuality with your girlfriend in the most beautiful way possible! A hug, Mark, happy to meet you!!

Mark writes: thank you very much, happy to meet you!

Project writes: thanks to you!

Mark writes: I will come every now and then to visit you on the forum

Project writes: it would be a very welcome thing! You’re always very welcome!

Mark writes: yes also because I have to see if my story will be useful to someone

Project writes: I really think so!

Mark writes: Good night Project!

Project writes: Good night Mark!