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HOW TO SAY NO TO ANOTHER GAY Posted by: gayprojectforum - 10-16-2017, 11:52 PM - Forum: True gay stories - No Replies Dear Project, I'm a guy not too much young, over 35, all in all I've been lucky enough in a number of ways: I have a job, I live on my own and in a sense I found my accommodation at least economically, that is, I do not have much anxiety for the future.  My underlying problem is loneliness. I did not and I do not want to come out publicly, but I have some gay friends, not very few, all in the closet, like me, and with them I'm fine, we are more or less the same mindset, we come from very similar social environments, shortly we understand each other  well. And here, with my gay friends, my bigger problem is born.  I've seen that you have repeated many times that the "gay + gay = love" theorem does not work, does not correspond to reality and I can say that I’m the living example of your statement. When I met my gay friends I expected that theorem to work but it did not work. I often see them, I'm fine with them, but I never lost my head for any of them, maybe it just happened once and very superficially with a guy, but when we met "a little better" (and still very superficially), the interest has just vanished completely and when I did not hear him anymore I pulled a breath of relief. I also have straight friends, but I have never fallen in love with a straight guy, and I have never even had theoretical hypotheses on them. So far you can tell me that my situation is quite common, and so on, and that if I’m not susceptible to the affectivity, this is a problem of mine.  Okay, it might be true, but here's the real problem. How do you behave when you realize you are in the interest of another guy but you do not have a felling for that guy? That's exactly what happens to me at this time. I have noticed for a couple of months that one of my gay friends is interested in me, I understand it from his embarrassed behavior, from his always giving up, from his approaching me as often as possible. When these things happened at our group meetings, well, I did not take much notice, but then that guy started contacting me privately, sending me mails and messages. I tried to pretend, not to understand and answered in a banal way, but obviously my message, which was a "no, thanks" was not properly interpreted and he is continuing his approach maneuver.  He looks like a good guy, but very fragile, I think he's living a love story with me that does not make any sense because I'm not interested. Let's talk about it, I'm not interested because he does not attract me physically and I think nothing can be done. As a friend he’s fine. It's not like a person that I reject him, he’s honest, correct, whatever you want, but I do not see him in any way as a hypothetical guy with whom to build a life together. When he calls me, what happens quite often, I try to stay on very neutral arguments and never go into personal issues, but I see that he remembers what I say, he always asks me for explanations and especially does not realize that I'm not interested.  Honestly, Project, I'm afraid of really hurting this guy by telling him brutally how things are, but also by pretending nothing, remaining in the vague and postponing the moment of clarification forever. I thought of possible solutions: cutting relationships with the group, that is, just disappearing from the circulation, which is, however, very complicated to accomplish, to tell him or to make him understand that I have another guy, and other things even more absurd. He is not overly insistent because he is controlled and limited, but I see that this behavior for him is not totally spontaneous.  He is younger than me, a few years younger, he is 31 years old, but is an adult man, I know, I understand, I see he needs love, more than sex, he needs a stable affection on which to count but his point of reference cannot be me, because it is not spontaneous for me. Sometimes he makes me little gifts, which I never return, but he keeps doing so. They are not objects of value but objects that have something personal, particular objects that he has sought on the basis of something I said and he did not forget, for example I had talked about the old Neapolitan aluminum coffee makers, those of the years '50, and he gave me one. What should I do? Would you give him back gifts and tell him that there was no point in insisting on those things? I have not been able to do it.  When we talk I try to stretch the pauses, and he waits for hours too, I see that he is still there, that he has not gone and then I resume the conversation, which is not unpleasant, but on my side is forced, or at least a little forced. I'm afraid he’s developing a dependency and I do not know what to do, because I would not really hurt him. Time ago he used to send me good morning and good night messages, a little like lovers do. The first times I answered, then I started not answering and he stopped, but I had the obvious feeling of doing a bad thing. It did not cost me anything to go on with the messages, but those messages for him meant something else.  I thought maybe the best thing would be to speak clearly and tell him that I see him as a friend, what I have already said many times more or less explicitly, he thinks that friendship can turn into something else but I know that nothing will change. Project, perhaps it would look brutal, but if you do not like a guy physically, if you often hear and see him and have never made fantasies about him, how can you think that he can become your boyfriend? Physical appearance is very important. Staying with him and making fantasies about other guys would be just the worst way of staying with him, but I think that would happen just that. I cannot force myself to try a relationship that I do not feel instinctively mine, he would notice that it is something not spontaneous and it would be even worse.  I have to confess to you, Project, that the idea of trying anyway came to me because I think he would do anything to get close to me, somehow he would suit me, he would end up accepting anything but I do not want such things to happen, there would be no equality within the couple, what I think is absolutely crucial. In short, it's just a critical moment, I know I cannot go on for a long time with postponements, I know I have to decide and I have to decide soon. I feel split in two, I know he's a good guy, but I cannot pretend to be in love with him and I cannot even start a totally unbalanced relationship because in the end I would hurt especially to him.  He is also a nice guy, although he is not my type, and there are some common friends who would probably want to draw his attention, but he only thinks of me and every other hypothesis is totally impossible for him. I'm not in a good situation. I do not want to hurt that guy, but I did not fall in love and I do not know how to get out of this situation without making damages. I would be grateful if I knew what you think. If you want to post the mail, certainly you can, basically I think my problem is widespread and maybe reflecting on these things can also be useful for others.  I greet you and look forward to your mail. Christian    BEING GAY AND LOOKING GAY Posted by: gayprojectforum - 10-15-2017, 04:50 PM - Forum: Coming out - No Replies Dear Project, you publish on your sites only edifying gay stories, beautiful love stories that I like a lot when I read them, but unfortunately I have never experienced such stories in practice. I know some gay guys like the ones who send you the mails you post on the forum, but I also met gays who were the exact opposite. It may also be that I have been unlucky but I want to tell you at least a significant fact that happened to me in early 2016. There is a gay guy, indeed there are two gay guys with two strange ways of doing, in my opinion they are not bad guys neither one nor the other, but to understand you have to read. In the New Year's Eve 2016, I met an exuberant, almost explosive guy who had impressed me so much: I will call him Tano, a beautiful smile, always telling jokes and laughing, also nice to talk to. In short, I liked him. I did not have a boyfriend at that time and my fantasy started working right away on him. During the New Year’s Eve we talked a bit, but there was a pounding noise and we had to go out into the backyard. I felt that I had also attracted his interest, even though we did only banal talk. Get out of the door to talk out in the yard, okay, but doing it with a girl, if you do it with a guy, it does not happen by chance. When we got home early in the morning we exchanged cell phone numbers. On January 2 I called him and he looked happy to hear me again, it was Saturday and the 3rd of January would be Sunday, I invited him to come with my group for a walk to the sea and we set an appointment for 8am. My group is straight, this means above all that there are a 50% of girls and there are many couples; the guys in the group think that I’m 100% heterosexual, of course, because I have nothing to let them suspect that I'm gay and then such things are my business and I want to keep them for me. I did not know anything about Tano, if he was gay or straight, I only called him because I liked him. Obviously not even Tano knew anything about me, I only had met him the night before! Sunday at 8.00am the guys in the group were already there, we were just 11, I said we had to wait for Tano, and instead of leaving we started chatting. At 8.30am Tano had not yet arrived, someone began to show signs of impatience. I called Tano on the phone, he told me he was coming. At 8.45 he showed up with his gorgeous smile. Nobody mumbled for his delay. Four couples went with two cars, I, Tano and another couple went with my car. Shortly after the departure Tano started doing stupid things, asking questions unimportant and very nosy to the couple who was in the car with us. He asked if they were a couple, which was absolutely obvious, and they asked him why he was alone, he replied that he was not alone but with me, that is with his boyfriend! I hurried up to deny everything and emphasize that I only had met him two days before, but he insisted doing stupid things: we were sitting on the front seats and the couple of friends were behind. I had my hand on the gear knob, he put his hand on mine. I told him, "Stop, I'm driving!" Then he pulled his hand back in a very theatrical way and told me, "What's up? What did I do?" Then he asked the couple, "What do you think about gay couples?" Frankly at that moment I would have killed him! The guys on my group have full control over themselves and know how to behave in every situation and respond impeccably according to the manual of good education and avoid being dragged into strange speeches. When the girl realized that Tano's talk was heavy and he insisted a little too much, came in my defense: "Tano, I think you have chosen the wrong person, I know Silvia, his girlfriend, they have been together for two years!" But Tano insisted: "You didn’t tell me that ... ok, perhaps you're a bit bisexual!" I was just losing patience. "Tano, do you want to get off the car here?" And he answered, "But what did I say? But I cannot even talk?" Of course Silvia does not exist at all, but Tano didn’t know it. The girl resumed the talk about Silvia, and I also cautiously played my part. Silvia became more and more concrete in front of Tano's eyes and the gay fairy behaviors ended. For all the rest of the trip we only talked in three. Tano was practically out of the game, perhaps he was expecting a gay group of friends, but found one straight (or almost) and he felt uncomfortable.  When we arrived at the sea, with the other guys he kept a polite behavior albeit easy, nothing similar to what happened during the trip. When we were at the table, I was sitting in front of Tano, I got a call on the cellphone, I answered. It was the girl who was with us in the car. She told me: "I see that you have “that guy” in front of you, do as if your girlfriend really called you, otherwise you will never get rid of him." I wanted the afternoon to pass safely and I agreed to pretend. I covered the cellphone with my hand not to let him hear what I was saying (and I was not saying anything) and I made very happy faces as if I was talking to my girlfriend. Tano pretended to look elsewhere but was attentive to my behavior. When I closed the phone he acted as if nothing had happened and started talking with the guy sitting beside him.  In January the night comes soon, and we came back home. We accompanied the two guys who were in the car with us, then I went to accompany Tano who apologized for the incident and said he did a stupid thing but he didn’t think he could cause any problems but added that he had thought I was not straight, and he did not know why, but he had thought so. At those moments I did not know what to say. I liked him, even though he was too intrusive and inopportune. I had to tell him that there was no girl at all and that we had teased him to keep him calm, but I would have lost him, on the other hand I would have lost him even if I had continued to play the role of the straight. I was really embarrassed. It would have been possible to overcome the embarrassment with physical contact that would be more meaningful than any speech, but a similar gesture would have prevented me from changing attitudes in case of necessity, that is, if Tano proved to be too intrusive or at any rate,  was really incompatible with me. In the end, I chose to continue to pretend to be a heterosexual who has a girlfriend, because the other road seemed too risky and above all too premature.  Tano was disappointed, but "if one is straight" there is little to do! In the following days he did not recall me and after a few days I called him, he was happy to hear me, but of official happiness, he was controlled in his speeches and did not intend to prolong the phone call. For a couple of months we went on so, I called him, I tried to talk to him, but he was elusive, but my insistence began to seem strange to him. The first of March he made me an unexpected proposition, he told me: "I'm going to have a pizza with you if Silvia comes in." It was a sign he had understood. I told him that it was fine and we made a date for the evening of the third of March at a restaurant.  I came first, asked to prepare a table for three and sat waiting for Tano. He arrived, saw the table for three and made a strange face: "I would not spoil the evening." I told him that he would not spoil anything, and that Silvia was in the bathroom to reset a little. Then I told him to order and he replied, "No, I’ll wait!" And then I unveiled the mystery, but in degrees: "Silvia could not come because… she doesn’t exist ..." Then on Tano's face came back his mischievous smile: "Really?" "Yes" "Then you too ..." "Eh ..." "Wow!" Then, we had dinner in holy peace! So my story began with Tano, which lasts for almost two years, but I must be clear, I do not think Tano is without fault. We are happy together, this is what I can say, but we will never agree on certain things. I'm going to list Tano's defects, or at least those I consider defects:   First of all he insisted that I would join his group of friends, which is not good for me, not because they are gay, but because they are very much posing, at least in certain situations, and do not understand that this may also annoy the other gays. There are six boys in Tano's group, including Tano, if you take them one by one they are good guys, calm, who think before acting, but if you put them all together they become a public danger, they unleash themselves and can certainly create problems to one like me because I don’t like to deal with my homosexuality publicly. When Tano wanted to go with them I did not go with him, and after a while Tano himself did not go anymore, but we continued attending his friends of the group, one or two at a time. And I can say that Tano has accepted this solution.  Second, Tano at the beginning had the fixed idea that I should make a public coming out, which, apart from the fact that I do not like it in any case, is something too much risky, because such a thing could cause me great problems at work. Now he  accepted the idea that we can be a couple even if one is out and the other in the closet!   Third and last thing, this much more private, Tano considers sex as fun, which I find very ridiculous. I made him have the obsessive idea of prevention (before he was not too careful).   He has an idea of gay sexual behaviors, so to say, very classic and I don’t like it at all when he insists heavily to make me do things I don’t like. And here we once came to the brink of breaking. I said to him, "Being in two means being really in two, I've adapted myself to so many things to please you, okay, it's fine, but elasticity must be on both sides, otherwise you have to find another guy!" He thinks he is incarnating the essence of “gayness” and does not understand that he is just one of the many and that there are a lot of gays who are gay at 100% and who reason very differently. However Tano has a wonderful way of living sex, he's just overwhelmed by sexuality. I would be less touched, but when I see him, I’m excited too, and things work very well.   Now a merit of Tano: he tells you things in the face, sometimes even brutally, and sometimes he kept me from doing big stupid things with his frankness. There is one thing I don’t think possible, that is that he can betray me, I'll explain this statement better, I think it's impossible that he can go with another guy “without telling me anything”, but I think he could go with another guy after talking about to me, and I'm afraid that something like this actually happens even if nothing like it has ever happened. Our couple's life is not bad, but for me Tano is not a religion, our couple's life is a reality to be checked out day by day.  Now we don’t live together, even though I have a house where I live alone, because the gossip would be destructive for both of us and I would also create enormous problems for my family. We are working hard both of us to buy a cottage in the country, with no neighbors, but houses cost a lot and it will take time, this is our dream as a couple at the moment. Thanks for what you do, Project, of course you can post this mail on the forum, even Tano has read it and agrees.   Bye. Pas and Tano   GAY LOVE WITH LITTLE SEX Posted by: gayprojectforum - 10-13-2017, 07:56 PM - Forum: Gay couples - No Replies Dear Project, I'm 42, I'm gay, no need to say, I have had my own experiences, really few, only one meaningful that lasts for a couple of years and is still going on. Before this my being gay was limited to gay porn and a bit of fantasy. I had never had concrete opportunities. I met some gay guys through dating sites, actually a few guys, they seemed pretty reliable, we became friends, but it was a superficial friendship, they had their own group, their world, far away from mine. I slowly lost contact with those guys and I did not even notice it. I spent years working from morning till night to save some money and finally buy a home. Two years ago I bought a mini-apartment in the city center and I spent everything I had set aside and I still have to pay the mortgage, though not very heavy. From this point of view I felt satisfied, but my black hole was the affective life that, until two years ago, had never taken off. I am a very common type, I have nothing outstanding in any field, I'm physically a normal person, I do not think I'm particularly ugly, but at 42 I'm certainly not a nice guy and on the other hand I've never been. From the economic point of view I have a stable job, but nothing remarkable. I'm not a brilliant guy, I do not go to gay clubs or of any other kind, I spend my time working even when I'm home, because I connect with my office even from home, so I do not know what boredom is, while I certainly know what are fatigue and stress. But now I come to the real reason for my mail. About two years ago I met through a meeting site a 26 year old guy (much younger than me). We exchanged some mail, we chatted a bit, he looked like a good guy. After a few days we met in person, and we went to have a pizza together, then we had some sex in the car, but only touching each other because I did not want to risk neither did he. Things of that kind had happened to me some other time and generally everything ended there, and we did not meet again. With him it was not like that. In fact, the next day I had already forgotten him because I took it for granted that everything was over, but that was not the case. He called me and told me that for him it had been a very important experience, he perceived my respect, the fact that I was trying not to make things difficult for him, that I did not want him to do anything that was not good for him as well, etc.  He asked me if we could meet again and I told him yes. Frankly it seemed odd that he was looking for someone like me, 14 years older, and I felt a little agitated. When we met for the second time it was Sunday and we went to the sea together, it was summer, it was hot and we spent the whole day together, we had also some sex this time, I thought things would go further, but instead stopped at the same point of the previous time. I confess that such a thing not only did not upset me but for me it was a reassuring element. Being there with that guy was really nice, seen in swimsuit he was really a nice guy, and was standing there at sea with me ... Was he there to have sex? Maybe, but it did not seem to me his real purpose.  Between us, we created an almost familiar environment of mutual attentiveness, remembering all the words of the other, underlining that it was nice to be together and that a day like that was really important. Sometimes he looked almost absentminded and then smiled at me, he spoke little, silences were long, the facial expressions and the eyes were strongly communicative. At the end of the day we came back to the city. He did not want to be accompanied at home but only at the subway stop. When I got home I felt happy, oddly happy. What could I expect from that guy? Objectively little or nothing, yet it was also for me an absolutely unique Sunday.  Within the next three days I did not hear him and I started to feel nostalgic about his presence, but I decided not to call him anyway. On the fourth day, at five o'clock in the afternoon, he sent me a message: "I’m under your house, would you like to walk a bit?" I replied, "Ok!" And I went down. As usual he spoke very little, but he asked many questions, he wanted to try to get a clearer idea of my life. He asked me if I had a boyfriend, if I had had one in the past, how I meant the couple's life, what value for me had the sex and so many things of this kind. I first answered his questions but then I told him I did not know anything about him and he just said, "You're right, sorry, I'm inappropriate and intrusive." But he did not speak to me about himself.  There have been moments of embarrassment, we did not know what to say, then he looked in my eyes for a few seconds and said, "Are you sure you want to know something about me?" And I said, "I think so." He started with the latest times: still studying, lives at his parents' home who do not know anything about him and they do not even suspect that he is gay because he has so many female friends and brings them home too. Through dating sites he met several guys, in fact, only 5, with whom he tried to build a relationship, but it was not possible because they were just looking for sex, so he had had to face 5 disappointments. None of those guys were interested in building something or understanding how he really was. He tells me he feels comfortable with me, free, not crammed.  Then he started another argument I did not expect, he told me that he had been raped at age 19 by a guy who then was known to be HIV positive, but luckily there were no consequences because that guy in all probability was not yet HIV positive at the time. He told me he did the test several times and that it always was negative. Then he told me that anal sex is an intolerable thing for him, because that practice reminds him of things he does not want to remember. He told me that the fact that I did not insist on doing things he didn’t want to do was greatly appreciated and asked if anal sex for me was very important. I told him that I have never had fantasies of that kind and that for me being gay is essentially an emotional issue, there is certainly sex, but as a form of tenderness, certainly not of aggressiveness or of dominance, which I would consider awful.  The afternoon passed this way. Then he told me he had to study because he had to take an exam after about a month and we greeted. I thought that such a speech was a prelude to a separation of about a month but it was not so. The next day he called me and asked me if he could stay at my house because he needed tranquility to study. I was puzzled but then told him yes and after a couple of hours he joined me with a bag full of books and his computer. I had prepared the room, with the bed just made, the desk and the armchair, it was almost four in the afternoon, he settled in the room and then started studying, we exchanged only a few words. I went to my room to work.  At about eight o'clock, I went to the kitchen and I prepared dinner, I put the plates for him on a tray and brought all to him in the room, he looked at me and made a wonderful smile. I said, "Be quiet, later I'll bring you a coffee." He studied until about 23 o'clock, then opened the door of the room and let me in, sat on the armchair and lay on the bed, he said we did not have to say a word and I did so. After a dozen minutes he told me, "Are you sorry if we do not do it today? ... because I'm very tired and I need to sleep." I told him that I just needed to see him smiling. He hugged me tight, then I asked him what time he wanted to be woken the next day, he said "At seven o'clock." And I went to sleep in my room.  The next morning I got up at 6.30 am, I went to the bar and took the breakfast for myself and for him and then brought it to him in the tray. I greeted him, told him that everything was ready for lunch in the fridge and went out to go to work. In the afternoon I found him very busy studying. He had not eaten, then I cooked something very quickly, he stopped studying and we had lunch together though it was advanced afternoon. In the 30 days before the examination there were also sexual contacts, always very light but desired by both sides, exchanges of reassuring tenderness.  We talked very little, he was totally absorbed by the study, when he did not understand something he filled out pages of calculations to try to overcome the problem and if he could not he felt very depressed. The closer he approached the day of examination, the more he was anxious. The night before the exam we slept together embraced, but without sex. In the morning he went to the exams and I waited for the written test to finish. He seemed quite satisfied, but the anxiety was not completely vanished. The following day he sent me a message to tell me that the written test was fine and that he would have the oral examination the next day. Even that night we slept hugged.  The next day I received another message: "All OK!" I came home after 6pm, he slept and I did not wake him up. I sat on the armchair beside his bed and I was there to see his rest. When he woke up he said, "I love you!" And I felt happy till the seventh heaven! There is also sex between us, but what I appreciate most is that love itself is fundamental to him. there was no formal statement of any kind between us, now he is at my house, also because it is close to university, he studies, I see him motivated, between us exists a very nice relationship that I never thought could be realized. Two years have passed and now I can no longer stay without him. The thing I like most is when he falls asleep in my arms. I've never experienced moments of deeper tenderness.   EXPERIENCES OF A MARRIED GAY Posted by: gayprojectforum - 10-12-2017, 09:58 PM - Forum: True gay stories - No Replies I'm writing to you because I cannot do it anymore, I don’t know where to bang my head. I'm thirty, I'm gay and I'm married for two years, I have a son not yet a year old. I feel literally split in two, on one side there is my wife with my son, on the other my sexuality.    When I was married I was 28 and I was with the same girl for ten years. Everything started almost as a game because all my friends had a girl and I with my friends was fine. Was I gay even then? I think so, my friends were drooling over their girls, I was fine with mine, but already I felt that having a girl at social level, for me was the maximum I could aspire; for my friends to have a girlfriend meant having sex with that girl. For them, doing such things was obvious and obviously very engaging, for me it was kind of a hypothesis that I tried to keep away as much as possible, even though I used to see my girlfriend almost every day with the blessing of my parents who were trying to leave us all the possible freedom, that is, they tended to leave us alone as much as possible, what I was trying to avoid systematically, because when it happened to be alone, a kind of sexual game, that she liked very much, started, but for me it was quite embarrassing.  Playing with a girl, including a certain level of physical contact was after all good and when we kissed the erection arrived. When she was touching me from above my trousers (always from above, with one exception) I felt a strange feeling of the type. "But what am I to do here?" I was wondering why I was not involved as my friends were in similar situations, although I knew it very well. The only time we masturbated each other my  feeling was of total passivity, the brain was elsewhere and had already removed everything.  She was obviously inexperienced and then she was a girl and to me it was not good at all and then finding me masturbating a girl provoked me some moment of real rejection. It was a world I did not know at all and that I did not care at all. After that I had to make it clear to my girlfriend that it did not feel right to me to live sexuality that way, in practice I was flaunting false religious sentiments to prevent such experiences from repeating and it worked because she was not really excited by sexuality, at least as far as she could put it into practice with me.  Anyway, she was somehow perplexed at the beginning, that is, she was uncertain, then she realized that if she insisted she would lose me completely and she preferred to avoid systematically the subject, even because she was interested in marriage even then, as if marriage could be imagined without a real sexual interest, at least at the beginning. At that time I was 22 and she 21. We went on for six years between holidays together, without sex, of course, and lunch at my own home one Sunday yes and one no.  Then we had to think about the study and a reason to postpone the important decisions was there, then I graduated and she shortly thereafter.  There is something that I'm ashamed of a bit. I could have looked for work on my own but my father-in-law offered me to work with him and since everything seemed so obvious and the offer was good I accepted almost immediately. My father-in-law created a very collaborative relationship, almost a complicity, but my father-in-law took absolutely for granted that I would marry his daughter in a very short time. I was trapped now and I knew I could not escape so we fixed the date and married.  It all seemed wonderful but between me and my wife there was a fundamental issue never faced, not so much about having sex with her because at the limit, thinking of something else, I could have a sexual intercourse with her, the real problem was that I had a parallel life: no occasional lovers or sexual intercourses, but I was masturbating with gay pornography and I was doing it since I was 15 years old. I never put my wife's health at risk, I would never have done such a thing and, honestly, it was a hypothesis out of reality.  I knew very well that I did not want to be with a woman, that for me was absolutely unnatural, but in my background  there was the idea that "with a bit of will I could set aside the stupid vice of masturbation and so homosexuality would disappear. I started to try everything to get away from homosexual desires, I forced myself not to go to gay sites or rather not to go to porn sites of any kind, because in fact you can see men also in the straight pornography, I tried to drive those which I called "bad thoughts" but there was nothing to do, after a short period of time I was again masturbating with gay videos.  I had, if I can say so, a little bit of tranquility about the last times of my waiting for my son and the first six months after his birth. Frankly I thought I had found peace again. My wife did not attract me sexually but she was busy with the baby now and the problem did not even arise. Grandparents were radiant, we were receiving gifts for the baby and for us, my wife was in the seventh heaven but I slowly began to feel guilty in an ever deeper way: "I have a beautiful family and masturbate thinking about guys, but I am an adult, I am a father, I should think of the happiness of my family but instead of thinking of them I go looking for gay sites and I do it at night, in secret, when they are asleep, I'm just a shabby depraved!"  I considered as irreconcilable things my love for my son and, all in all, also for my wife, who is completely unaware of what I'm going through, and homosexuality, as if they were really incompatible things. I said to myself, "If you do those things you cannot love your son!" And even though I was looking for gay sites all night long, I loved my son tenderly.  Then I started wondering why homosexuality should be destructive of my real family feelings and I came to a conclusion, namely that I would never have wasted my marriage for "a gay adventure", at that time I used that expression but as long as I was limited to some porn videos, in fact, I would not have destroyed anything, and so, we can say with more awareness, I decided to be able to afford gay pornography even if with limited time and of course in very private form.  Talking with my married friends I learned that they also used pornography, obviously straight, and that, from time to time, they betrayed their wives if they had the opportunity, and so I began to feel less the black sheep.  This is where I am now. I do not think I would ever betray my wife with a man, I do not know, maybe the opportunity has not happened yet and if it will happen I will do in a very different way but honestly I think I would stay in my place, But why should I deprive myself of that little sex that I really feel belongs to me? For the sake of my son? But what do you mean? I do not put anything into crisis and then why should I make a clear speech to my wife about these things? I know that in theory between wife and husband there must be no secrets, but she is happy now, so I just do not see why I should turn her life into crisis because of things she could never understand.  I'm gay but she does not suspect anything like that, so what do I do wrong going on like this? If things will change, I will think about, but now speaking clearly would mean destroying everything for a matter of principle that, in certain cases, can make sense, but in this case it's completely misleading. I'm anxious for your answer.   HOMOSEXUALITY AND IGNORANCE Posted by: gayprojectforum - 10-12-2017, 11:12 AM - Forum: Gays and secularity - No Replies The fundamental problem for the concrete realization of the criteria of freedom and equality on which a secular civil society should be established is represented by ignorance, in consequence of which, instead of concepts based on facts that are not known, preconceptions completely unfounded take place. In order to know the reality about homosexuality I reproduce below a fundamental document by the World Health Organization ("Cures for an illness that does not exist") where are summarized some points of extreme importance to gay people. This document is the synthesis of very high scientific level of the work of thousands of specialists coming from all over the world. I invite you to see how the contents of this document reflect faithfully what Gay Project has always supported. I think that there is no need to place side by side this document with other well-known documents of confessional origin. I refer the interested reader to two articles published by Gay Project: GAY BETWEEN REAL MORAL AND REPARATIVE THERAPY http://gayprojectforum.altervista.org/T-gays-between-real-moral-and-reparative-therapy POPE RATZINGER AND HOMOSEXUALITY http://gayprojectforum.altervista.org/T-pope-ratzinger-and-homosexuality __________________________ Pan American Health Organization Regional Office of the World Health Organization “CURES” FOR AN ILLNESS THAT DOES NOT EXIST Purported therapies aimed at changing sexual orientation lack medical justification and are ethically unacceptable Introduction Countless human beings live their lives surrounded by rejection, maltreatment, and violence for being perceived as “different.” Among them, millions are victims of attitudes of mistrust, disdain and hatred because of their sexual orientation. These expressions of homophobia are based on intolerance resulting from blind fanaticism as well as pseudoscientific views that regard non-heterosexual and non-procreative sexual behavior as “deviation” or the result of a “developmental defect.” Whatever its origins and manifestations, any form of homophobia has negative effects on the affected people, their families and friends, and society at large. There is an abundance of accounts and testimonies of suffering; feelings of guilt and shame; social exclusion; threats and injuries; and persons who have been brutalized and tortured to the point of causing injuries, permanent scars and even death. As a consequence, homphobia represents a public health problem that needs to be addressed energetically. While every expression of homophobia is regrettable, harms caused by health professionals as a result of ignorance, prejudice, or intolerance are absolutely unacceptable and must be avoided by all means. Not only is it fundamentally important that every person who uses health services be treated with dignity and respect; it is also critical to prevent the application of theories and models that view homosexuality as a “deviation” or a choice that can be modified through “will power” or supposed “therapeutic support”. In several countries of the Americas, there has been evidence of the continued promotion, through supposed “clinics” or individual “therapists,” of services aimed at “curing” non-heterosexual orientation, an approach known as “reparative” or “conversion therapy.”1 Worryingly, these services are often provided not just outside the sphere of public attention but in a clandestine manner. From the perspective of professional ethics and human rights protected by regional and universal treaties and conventions such as the American Convention on Human Rights and its Additional Protocol (“Protocol of San Salvador”) 2, they represent unjustifiable practices that should be denounced and subject to corresponding sanctions. Homosexuality as a natural and non-pathological variation Efforts aimed at changing non-heterosexual sexual orientations lack medical justification since homosexuality cannot be considered a pathological condition.3 There is a professional consensus that homosexuality represents a natural variation of human sexuality without any intrinsically harmful effect on the health of those concerned or those close to them. In none of its individual manifestations does homosexuality constitute a disorder or an illness, and therefore it requires no cure. For this reason homosexuality was removed from the relevant systems of classification of diseases several decades ago.4 The ineffectiveness and harmfulness of “conversion therapies” Besides the lack of medical indication, there is no scientific evidence for the effectiveness of sexual reorientation efforts. While some persons manage to limit the expression of their sexual orientation in terms of conduct, the orientation itself generally appears as an integral personal characteristic that cannot be changed. At the same time, testimonies abound about harms to mental and physical health resulting from the repression of a person’s sexual orientation. In 2009, the American Psychological Association conducted a review of 83 cases of people who had been subject to “conversion” interventions.5 Not only was it impossible to demonstrate changes in subjects’ sexual orientation, in addition the study found that the intention to change sexual orientation was linked to depression, anxiety, insomnia, feelings of guilt and shame, and even suicidal ideation and behaviors. In light of this evidence, suggesting to patients that they suffer from a “defect” and that they ought to change constitutes a violation of the first principle of medical ethics: “first, do no harm.” It affects the right to personal integrity as well as the right to health, especially in its psychological and moral dimensions. Reported violations of personal integrity and other human rights As an aggravating factor, “conversion therapies” have to be considered threats to the right to personal autonomy and to personal integrity. There are several testimonies from adolescents who have been subject to “reparative” interventions against their will, many times at their families’ initiative. In some cases, the victims were interned and deprived of their liberty, sometimes to the extent of being kept in isolation during several months. 6 The testimonies provide accounts of degrading treatment, extreme humiliation, physical violence, aversive conditioning through electric shock or emetic substances, and even sexual harassment and attempts of “reparative rape,” especially in the case of lesbian women. Such interventions violate the dignity and human rights of the affected persons, independently of the fact that their “therapeutic” effect is nil or even counterproductive. In these cases, the right to health has not been protected as demanded by the regional and international obligations established through the Protocol of San Salvador and the International Covenant on Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights. Conclusion Health professionals who offer “reparative therapies” align themselves with social prejudices and reflect a stark ignorance in matters of sexuality and sexual health. Contrary to what many people believe or assume, there is no reason – with the exception of the stigma resulting from those very prejudices – why homosexual persons should be unable to enjoy a full and satisfying life. The task of health professionals is to not cause harm and to offer support to patients to alleviate their complaints and problems, not to make these more severe. A therapist who classifies non-heterosexual patients as “deviant” not only offends them but also contributes to the aggravation of their problems. “Reparative” or “conversion therapies” have no medical indication and represent a severe threat to the health and human rights of the affected persons. They constitute unjustifiable practices that should be denounced and subject to adequate sanctions and penalties. Recommendations To governments:  Homophobic ill-treatment on the part of health professionals or other members of health care teams violates human rights obligations established through universal and regional treaties. Such treatment is unacceptable and should not be tolerated. “Reparative” or “conversion therapies” and the clinics offering them should be reported and subject to adequate sanctions. Institutions offering such “treatment” at the margin of the health sector should be viewed as infringing the right to health by assuming a role properly pertaining to the health sector and by causing harm to individual and community well-being.7 Victims of homophobic ill-treatment must be treated in accordance with protocols that support them in the recovery of their dignity and self-esteem. This includes providing them treatment for physical and emotional harm and protecting their human rights, especially the right to life, personal integrity, health, and equality before the law. To academic institutions:  Public institutions responsible for training health professionals should include courses on human sexuality and sexual health in their curricula, with a particular focus on respect for diversity and the elimination of attitudes of pathologization, rejection, and hate toward non-heterosexual persons. The participation of the latter in teaching activities contributes to the development of positive role models and to the elimination of common stereotypes about non-heterosexual communities and persons. The formation of support groups among faculty and within the student community contributes to reducing isolation and promoting solidarity and relationships of friendship and respect between members of these groups. Better still is the formation of sexual diversity alliances that include heterosexual persons. Homophobic harassment or maltreatment on the part of members of the faculty or students is unacceptable and should not be tolerated. To professional associations: Professional associations should disseminate documents and resolutions by national and international institutions and agencies that call for the de-psychopathologization of sexual diversity and the prevention of interventions aimed at changing sexual orientation. Professional associations should adopt clear and defined positions regarding the protection of human dignity and should define necessary actions for the prevention and control of homophobia as a public health problem that negatively impacts the enjoyment of civil, political, economic, social, and cultural rights. The application of so-called “reparative” or “conversion therapies” should be considered fraudulent and as violating the basic principles of medical ethics. Individuals or institutions offering these treatments should be subject to adequate sanctions. To the media: The representation of non-heterosexual groups, populations, or individuals in the media should be based on personal respect, avoiding stereotypes or humor based on mockery, ill-treatment, or violations of dignity or individual or collective well-being. Homophobia, in any of its manifestations and expressed by any person, should be exposed as a public health problem and a threat to human dignity and human rights. The use of positive images of non-heterosexual persons or groups, far from promoting homosexuality (in virtue of the fact that sexual orientation cannot be changed), contributes to creating a more humane and diversity-friendly outlook, dispelling unfounded fears and promoting feelings of solidarity. Publicity that incites homophobic intolerance should be denounced for contributing to the aggravation of a public health problem and threats to the right to life, particularly as it contributes to chronic emotional suffering, physical violence, and hate crimes. Advertising by “therapists,” “care centers,” or any other agent offering services aimed at changing sexual orientation should be considered illegal and should be reported to the relevant authorities. To civil society organizations: Civil society organizations can develop mechanisms of civil vigilance to detect violations of the human rights of non-heterosexual persons and report them to the relevant authorities. They can also help to identify and report persons and institutions involved in the administration of so-called “reparative” or “conversion therapies.” Existing or emerging self-help groups of relatives or friends of non-heterosexual persons can facilitate the connection to health and social services with the goal of protecting the physical and emotional integrity of ill-treated individuals, in addition to reporting abuse and violence. Fostering respectful daily interactions between persons of different sexual orientations is enriching for everyone and promotes harmonic, constructive, salutary, and peaceful ways of living together. _____ 1 Human Rights Committee (2008). Concluding Observations on Ecuador(CCPR/C/ECU/CO/5), paragraph 12. <http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrc/docs/co/CCPR.C.ECU.CO.5.doc> Human Rights Council (2011). Discriminatory Laws and Practices and Acts of Violence Against Individuals Based on Their Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity (A/HRC/19/41), paragraph 56. <http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/HRBodies/HRCouncil/RegularSession/Session19/AHRC-19-41_en.pdf> Human Rights Council (2011). Report of the Special Rapporteur on the Right of Everyone to the Enjoyment of the Highest Attainable Standard of Physical and Mental Health (A/HRC/14/20), paragraph 23. <http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/14session/A.HRC.14.20.pdf> United Nations General Assembly (2001). Note by the Secretary-General on the Question of Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (A/56/156), paragraph 24. <http://www.un.org/documents/ga/docs/56/a56156.pdf> 2 The human rights that can be affected by these practices include, among others, the right to life, to personal integrity, to privacy, to equality before the law, to personal liberty, to health, and to benefit from scientific progress. 3 American Psychiatric Association (2000). Therapies Focused on Attempts to Change Sexual Orientation (Reparative or Conversion Therapies): Position Statement <http://www.psych.org/Departments/EDU/Library/APAOfficialDocumentsandRelated/PositionStatements/200001.aspx> Anton, B. S. (2010). “Proceedings of the American Psychological Association for the Legislative Year 2009: Minutes of the Annual Meeting of the Council of Representatives and Minutes of the Meetings of the Board of Directors”. American Psychologist, 65, 385–475. <http://www.apa.org/about/governance/council/policy/sexual-orientation.pdf> Just the Facts Coalition (2008). Just the Facts about Sexual Orientation and Youth: A Primer for Principals, Educators, and School Personnel. Washington, DC. <http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/justthefacts.html> 4 World Health Organization (1994). International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (10th Revision). Geneva, Switzerland. American Psychiatric Association (2000). Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders(4th ed.,text revision). Washington, DC. 5 APA Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation (2009). Report of the Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation. Washington, DC. <http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-response.pdf> 6 Taller de Comunicación Mujer (2008). Pacto Internacional de Derechos Civiles y Políticos: Informe Sombra. <http://www.tcmujer.org/pdfs/Informe%20Sombra%202009%20LBT.pdf> Centro de Derechos Económicos y Sociales (2005). Tribunal por los Derechos Económicos, Sociales y Culturales de las Mujeres. <http://www.tcmujer.org/pdfs/TRIBUNAL%20DESC%20ECUADOR%20MUJERES.pdf> 7 See General Comment No. 14 by the Committee on Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights with regards to the obligation to respect, protect and comply with human rights obligations on the part of States parties to the International Covenant on Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights.   GAYS BETWEEN REAL MORAL AND REPARATIVE THERAPY Posted by: gayprojectforum - 10-12-2017, 10:45 AM - Forum: Gays and religion - No Replies I just finished reading the journalistic very documented report on the "reparative therapy of homosexuality" the therapy that Catholic groups recommend to solve the “problem” of homosexuality (http://gayprojectforum.altervista.org/T-...osexuality) all under the supervision of a professor of psychology at the Gregorian Pontifical University. Already on another occasion I had to mention the “gay science” (gay here means light) of so-called scientists, but here things are more serious because behind these things there is the endorsement of the Catholic Church and this is not then the usual isolated guru. In these things are involved churchmen. I am personally convinced that the Christian message is a very serious thing, or rather something that, if taken seriously, is a very serious thing, and I have known men of the Church who have really spent their lives for the others. I wonder how it is possible that what is described in the published report could obtain the approval of the Church. How could be tolerable that a boy 15/16 y. o. should be subject, according to the will of the parents, to raving "reparative therapy od the homosexuality". These things are not only immoral but verge on the Criminal Code. On the Italian blog of Gay Project (and kept all data) someone thought to place false comments linking to sites that reported for reparative therapy of homosexuality. Given the above, without taking into account the specific contents of the article, which show the squalor of certain circles, I’d like to develop here a few reflections on the idea of morality. For some people, who are inspired by the principles of a religious nature, morality corresponds to conform to a set of rules to which one attempts to give an absolute value, even revealed, and in this sense the pronunciation of any dogma about the content of the moral condemns as relativism any idea of evolution of the morality. For others, morality is not a para-legal matter, is not a dignified form of the Penal Code which defines authoritatively what is good and evil, but it is a principle according to which everything that is moral decreases the level of suffering of our neighbors and everything what is immoral increases it. Such principle is clearly of relativistic nature and does not require that there are objectively good things and objectively bad things, from this point of view good and evil are not judged a priori but only a posteriori on the basis of what they cause (cannot a good tree bear bad fruits, nor a bad tree bear good fruits). Now, each of us has a conscience and, as I have often said, there are people who need to get from outside their license of morality, starting from a more or less realistic adherence to accepted codes of conduct based on a principle of authority, in essence abdicating their freedom of conscience in the name of obedience, and there are people who consider unthinkable to accept external rules conflicting with their conscience. These people may work hard to find the principles of morality and to get reed of the external moral which is always the seemingly easier to accept. A blog like this, viewed in the perspective of the people who evaluate prejudicially the homosexuality as "intrinsically disordered", is obviously considered morally reprehensible, not only because it also talks about sex, but because it attempts to emphasize the idea of "homosexuality as a value", that is, tends to emphasize that homosexuality itself, like all forms of love, can be experienced with a deep morality, with a total respect for others and to always promote the good of others. The statement “gay = immorality” is not only deeply false but often doesn’t even come from ignorance, which may partly justify it, but from a radical form of hypocrisy. Who reads this blog, if has a minimum of conscience and honesty of mind, can never see gay people as bearers of a moral tendency "intrinsically disordered". I am gay, I talk to gay guys ten hours a day and I wonder: how can people who know these guys still have prejudices about the morality of gays? Among the gay guys I know, who are certainly not a few, I saw incredible acts of generosity, to the sacrifice of themselves and their own aspirations according to the good of others. I want to claim for pure spirit of truth, integrity, dignity and moral worth of a site like this, that gives me and the guys a chance for discussion and meeting, which alleviates the sense of loneliness and emotional deprivation which unfortunately still characterizes the lives of many gay men, which promotes peace of individuals and helps them to be comfortable with themselves and with others. I do not mean to be conceited: I see it every day, I can see the affection that I receive. I do not have the truth in my pocket and through this blog and chatting with the guys I changed my mind several times about substantial things. I'm not a psychologist, I have no claim to change the trends of anyone, things like that seem pathological to me. I have no ulterior motives of any kind and even less of economic nature, I have not established professional associations, I do not claim to be a scientist, all these things are thousands of miles away from me. I am Gay, I write it with a capital letter and I am glad of it. If there is something good to do for the gay guys, I feel obliged to do it, whatever the cost. Being gay is the source of my morality and when I talk with the guys and find them exactly like me, with the same dreams, the same anxieties, the same will to live their being gay so high, decent, moral, then I remain in my already deep-rooted belief that being gay is a value.   REPARATIVE THERAPY TO CURE HOMOSEXUALITY Posted by: gayprojectforum - 10-12-2017, 10:19 AM - Forum: Gay discomfort - No Replies Below you can read, in English, an important journalistic investigation on reparative therapy of homosexuality. The article, by Davide Varì, was published (in Italian) in the newspaper “Liberation” of December 23, 2007. __________ This is the story of a reporter who attended a course organized by an ultra-Catholic group for months. I told him, “I’m gay”. They replied: “Yours is a mild illness, we can cure it well …” Are you gay? Come to us, we will take care of you. Diary of six months in therapy … “The road to my presumed salvation begins with a meeting to define when and how I had to join the therapy group to cure my homosexuality” The story of a reporter who was infiltrated for months into a course organized by a ultra-Catholic group Davide Varì The appointment is with Don James at the headquarters of the Edizioni Paoline [Well-known publishing house of inspiration that is strongly Catholic] not far from Garbatella, a former lower-class quarter of Rome. A meeting to define when and how to join the therapy group to cure my homosexuality. An appointment was hard to get. Self-styled healers of gays, at least in Italy, do not want too much publicity. To trace the Italian one, I had to call a counterpart Swiss group that turned me to the Milan office of “Objective Chaire”, an ultra-Catholic association that organizes, yes, therapeutic meetings, but only in Milan. In the end they suggest Don James in Rome, a young prelate who, they say, can help me. And now, after that long pilgrimage, I’m there: I’m finally in front of the studio of Don James; the first step of my “healing” journey. A journey that lasted about six months in which I found myself immersed in a parallel world made of reticence, half-truths, ambiguities and strange alliances between the Vatican and some groups of psychologists led by Professor Tonino Cantelmi, president and founder of the Catholic Italian Psychologists Psychiatrists Association and professor of psychology at the Gregorian University [A well-known pontifical university in Rome]. But first there is Don James, the first level of evaluation of the “seriousness of the patient,” it is for him, a representative of the Catholic Church. Don James was kind. After several telephone conversations in which, with great discretion and tact, he asks me the reasons that lead me to this therapy, it’s time of the meeting. After a short introduction, begins the interview itself. There are two or three fundamental questions: how many times have I had gay sex, how often, and how I felt. I tell him almost all the truth, all except for the fact that I’m a journalist and not a homosexual. I tell him that I’m married; I have a daughter and throw it there a couple of homosexual experiences related to my adolescence and the concern that those experiences can return to the surface and ruin my marriage. Don James listens with participation. He then begins the work of investigation to understand the reasons for my homosexuality. He asks about my parents, the relationship with my mother – in respect of which pulls out quite a good conflict. It is always good, I think, the priests and the psychologists like it – I tell him about of the marginal role of my father, about sex with my wife, interpersonal relations, and so on; a superficial but full scanning of my experiences. Then the question: “When was the first time, David,” Don James asks. I tell him about a guy in my high school, named Luke, who was a good friend and how that friendship over time and in a completely unexpected way, was transformed into a sexual relationship. Don James listens with attention and participation. He sees I’m stressed and changes the subject: “Do you believe in God?” He asks. I say that I come from a very religious family but no, I never practiced. But lately, I add, I feel reborn in me something different. It is the most delicate moment, the moment where you have to choose whether to go through with it passing over the sincere religious beliefs of Don James, or end it there and leave. It’s like if I made fun of his faith, and perhaps no one gives me the right to get up to that point. Then I am convinced that in the daily reality, these “healers of homosexuals” only do damage: take a person, in most cases driven by family, tell him that his homosexuality is a deviation from the norm and invite him to take with them a healing journey, or better a “repair” journey. And then I decide to go ahead and pick up the appeal of Don James: “Let us pray together?”. With an effort, even if I’m an atheist, I pray with him. After the moment of silence Don James, with the same delicacy, invites me to continue my story. “Your relationship with Luke – he says – was passive or only active?” Don James wants to know if I have “suffered” the penetration. It must be just that the fundamental distinction to find out if, in fact, you were a true homosexual. “Active and passive”, I say suddenly. “And I also liked,” I say almost in the sense of challenge, faced with that question so vulgar. Vulgar not to the thing itself, but rather because for the first time I begin to glimpse, or so it seems to me, the real thoughts of the priest so young and friendly, a hole that exposes the judgment on me, or better on “people like me”. Don James nods austere and then asks me to talk about other relationships. Then I pull out a brief relationship with another guy who I had sex with after I married. Don James asks me to tell about the feelings I had felt. I invented a “sense of moral filth” I still live and I carry within me. The young priest is silent. He blesses me and calms me. “Your homosexuality – he says – is very superficial. I think you are ready to begin the healing path. ” At that point, I ask a few questions and inquire on what he called “path”. Don James, roughly speaking, tells me that almost all homosexuals have suffered a trauma or something that stopped the “natural” construction of true sexual identity. “For this – he says – are reparative therapy; to take back that experience, finding the fracture and redefine their gender identity. You are in a state of sexual confusion; you have to get help to redefine your sexuality in a correct way.  “Perfect, I’m ready to start the “path”. Don James takes a piece of paper and writes phone and address of Professor Tonino Cantelmi, “call him in a week, tell him I sent you, he will know it all.” He blesses me and dismisses me. *** The first meeting with Professor Cantelmi The study by Professor Tonino Cantelmi – President of the Institute of Cognitive Interpersonal Therapy, says on the label – is a seaport in which transit and land concerns and anxieties of varied humanity: children, adolescents, mothers, grandmothers. There is everything in that study. I sit down and wait to be called. He, the professor, sometimes comes out and greets a patient. With everyone he’s very confidential, they call him Tonino. Finally comes my time. I collect ideas to avoid contradicting than the story I told Don James a few weeks before. I refresh the scheme and the invented the names of my false lovers, and I put in the study of the Professor. He looks me up, smiles at me and makes me sit. “I’m David, I say, Don James sent me.” He nods – “with that name he put me in the category of repented homosexuals”, I think to myself – and invites me to tell my story. At that point I start with the story of high school, my relationship with my classmate and the concerns for my marriage after another relationship I had with a guy a couple of years ago. “What kind of relationship did you have?” Cantelmi asks. I pretend not to understand. “I mean – continues Professor – you had complete intercourse?”. I nod, but expect the professor comes out of his den and asks me the question, the question with the capital Q, in a direct way and he did not disappoint me,  “So David – tells me blunt – you’ve been passive in your sex life?” Here we go again, I think to myself. “Yes,” I answer. I decided to play the part of laconic. On the one hand I’m afraid to contradict myself, on the other because I want to see the skills of the professor in action. I am curious to see how he moves, how he works but he surprises me and after that one answer, ready to get rid of me, take pen and paper and writes the name of a colleague: “She is Dr. Cacace – he says, handing me the note – this is my assistant, contact her in my name. She will already know everything. “I seem to see a movie already seen however I do not want to miss the opportunity to find myself in front of the “guru” of the Italian healers of gays and then I rise to speak before he leaves me. “Listen, doctor – I say with the utmost of kindness – I want to understand exactly what’s expected of me.” “Nothing in particular – he says – the doctor will make a test .” “A test?”, I echo. “Yes, a test.” “A test to measure the degree of my homosexuality?” I interrupt him. “Well! Somehow, yes”, he says. “Excuse me – I ask – but what exactly is homosexuality?” At that point Cantelmi sits down, stretches out his arms on the table and begins: “I will speak of your homosexuality, not homosexuality in general. Let’s say that we are a group of psychologists who try to help people in need. Ours is a reparative therapy” *** Reparative therapy: homosexuality like communism There was talk for some time of these deviated sex thaumaturges. A fashion well spread in North America thanks to the work of many church-related groups that follow the teaching and practice of Joseph Nicolosi, president of NARTH, National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality. A clinical psychologist, this Joseph Nicolosi, a “guru” that boasts 500 cases of “gay treated” and cared for – just like that,” gay treated “- and that pulled out of the hat of his own psychiatric witchcraft the so-called “reparative therapy” whose stated purpose is to “bring homosexual persons to heterosexual orientation.” A message that has been taken in Italy and raised by Professor Tonino Cantelmi, president and founder of the Italian Catholic Psychologists and Psychiatrists Association and professor of psychology at the Gregorian University. In short, the Italian guru of reparative therapy, a person associated with the Vatican with double knot around which was born a working group consisting of five or six young psychologists who take care of individual therapies of the future and “repaired” heterosexuals. This reparative therapy is ancient history. Already in 2005, the Gay Pride magazine published a long article in which it questioned any scientific validity and reliability of this therapy. Franco Grillini, honorary president of Arcigay, also introduced a parliamentary question to block, through professional associations, reparative therapy. Even for this J.M. van den Aardweg, the American psychotherapist who wrote “Homosexuality & Hope” talks about gay lobby onslaught of science. Just to understand what is behind this alleged reparative therapy, the same van den Aardweg says – he did in a recent interview for “Acquaviva2000, Catholic culture on the net” – that many homosexuals” have serious mental disorders, or have developed a homosexual behavior of such proportions that it would not be so wrong to call them “sick”. “Not only that, van den Aardweg believes that because of the gay movement, “the masses will never completely assimilate unnatural concept that is imposed on them. It will go as with communism. Many, probably most, will pay to unnatural homosexual “religion” a formal cult, dictated by fear, but people will end up believing in it less and less.” These are the distinguished scientists who sponsor reparative therapy. Even more explicit the watchwords of the aforementioned ultra-Catholic group “Objective Chaire”: ” Spiritual, psychological and medical accompanying; attention to parents, teachers and educators in order to prevent the emergence of homosexual tendencies in children, adolescents and in young people; search for causes (spiritual, psychological, cultural, historical) that contribute to the spread of attitudes contrary to the natural law, knowable by reason properly formed.” Then the inevitable Joseph Nicolosi, an American clinical-psychologist who invented the reparative therapy. In a few days he will be in Italy to update his followers and illustrate for them, probably, the latest of his treatment. These are basic ideas: first, in the light of the social sciences, the form of the ideal family to promote the healthy development of the child is the traditional model of heterosexual marriage, and second, sexual identity is formed at an early age on the basis of ” biological, psychological and social elements”, and thirdly, there are many examples of people who have managed to change their behavior, identity, sexual fantasies or stimuli. In support of these theses “ex-gay” movements are born, people “repaired” and often converted to Catholicism who have the express purpose of proving that homosexuality can be “cured”. The beauty of it is that more and more groups of “ex-gay” are dissolved due to the fact that many members have re-found a partner of the same sex right in that organization. *** Reparative therapy of Cantelmi Cantelmi tries to fit on me, in my case, the reasons for treatment. He speaks of childhood trauma; confusing in a world already full of contradictions and fluidity in interpersonal relationships. All this to explain that in a sense the behavior of the homosexual person is induced by this external schizophrenia. Not only homosexuals though. Professor Cantelmi is convinced, and explains it to me, that our age is characterized by a large sexual compulsivity: an addiction that affects thousands of people, including many, many young people. He speaks of “sick relationships with sex,” of “loss of control” and so on. “And in all this, homosexuality?” I ask. “Well, my studio is full. We have a row. There are hundreds of guys asking for help. ” “You see – I say, trying to drive him out – I do not know if I’m homosexual. I do not know if I am the victim of some sort of mental illness or if I have to accommodate these, my instincts. ” “Do not worry David – tells me serene and smiling – from your profile I think I can speak of a generalized anxiety and a slight neurosis that somehow affects and diverts your sexual choices. Now we will test and we will have more items to choose the best treatment. ” *** The Test and the disciples of the professor and the cure Dr. Cristina Cacace Institute of cognitive interpersonal therapy directed by Cantelmi greets me smiling in his office. She looks at me, looks at me rather insistently. “Now she rumbles my game – I think – she discovers that I’m an infiltrator and drives me out.” (But no. Clearly, the diagnosis of Professor Cantelmi has influenced me. A little neurotic, I really feel persecuted. The fact is that she invites me with kindness in his study Ikea style, makes me sit and asks me: name, age, address, phone and marital status. I answer without hesitation and wait here, too, for “the” question. But Dr. Cacace already knows and does not need any introduction. We jump directly to the most intimate details: how often and up to what point. “Up to what point … what does it mean?” I ask. She smiles. I wonder if she, a young psychologist, really does believe the madness and violence of this blessed “reparative therapy” or is she there in that little studio just because she could not find anything better. But my thoughts were interrupted by the question of the doctor: “David, your homosexual relations were only active or also passive”? I feel strongly uncomfortable with the question asked, obsessive. I am reminded of the itchy and voyeuristic side of the person who asks it. At the end I answer as I have already answered Don James and Professor Cantelmi “Yes, active and passive.” I also tell her of my troubled relationship with my mother, the absence of my father and I would add that every so often, as a child, I was mistaken for a baby-girl. The young assistant of Cantelmi nods gravely and fixes an appointment for the personality test. “After the test – tells me before accompanying me to the door – we will know better how to deal with your situation.” A few days later I’m back there and I find that the test takes about four hours and is nothing but the so-called “Minnesota Test” used by the armed forces all over the world to select their staff. About six hundred questions that should give answers on deviations of the candidate: hypochondriasis, depression, hysteria, psychopathic deviation, masculinity or femininity, paranoia, psychasthenia, schizophrenia, hypomania and social introversion. Simply put a potpourri that, among other things, would clarify my homosexual tendencies. However, the doctor gives me the test, a pen, and puts me in the hallway. I begin to scroll through the questions: “Have you ever experienced very strange thoughts?” Or, “Would you like to be a florist?” Answer yes to this question driven by the banality of the consideration. Perhaps those who choose to do the florist, they say, have a predisposition to become a little pansy. Suddenly I am struck and distracted t by the silent presence of a lady and a young teenager. They are mother and son. He seems very shy, uncomfortable. I cannot say, but it could very well be a boy forced by his mother to stem, at least until it is time, “his own homosexual deviance.” Again I think of how narrow this practice is and how much violence it has in it. I think the pressure that may undergo a 15-16 year old boy who is discovering his own sexuality, the concern, often well-intentioned, of the parents and the choice to do something to stop this “discovery” rather than accept it and support it. Then the woman and the boy are caught in one of the many rooms of the study of students of Cantelmi and I go back to my infinite test: “Have you ever made unusual sexual practices?” “Did you like to play with dolls? “;” Someone controls your mind? “, “Do you often desire to be of the opposite sex? “;” The man should be the head of the family? “… Having finished the test, I go back into the room to see the doctor. She puts away my papers that already contain the result of my “degree of homosexuality” and pulls out a dozen colored cards with funny shapes. These are the spots of the Rorschach test. Undefined color spray, acting unconsciously activating projective reactions. In short, in the face of those spots I’m invited to track down and communicate meaningful figures. I launch striving to see penises, vaginas, anuses and so on. I identify even a couple of fetuses hung by the umbilical cord. I give the worst of me, trying to convince Dr. Cacace that my sexuality is particularly diverted, so corrupt and homosexual to merit her care. But she, in front of my genital rant does not bat an eyelid: pulls one after another the other cards of the test and takes notes diligently. Meanwhile I do not hold back a fleeting glance at her neckline. She is surprised, holds back a little, covers and looks at me with embarrassment. So, after all that talk about my homosexuality, I fell into banality to reaffirm my “masculinity” in front of a woman. For the first time, somehow, I live on my skin the strength and violence of the social and cultural conditioning that gays live. Then, I continue with my figures … *** The results of the tests: how much am I homosexual? “Not much, your homosexuality is really blurred,” says Dr. Cacace showing twenty pages that contain my “diagnosis”. “Blurred homosexuality”, just like that. At that point I ask for more explanation. “So, I would say that we are facing a neurosis that has led to a sexual deviation – she continues – will be Professor Cantelmi to explain it better. After a few days I’m back in the waiting room of the professor. The feeling is the same: a seaport open to all “human cases”. Cantelmi, courteous and welcoming as always, browses the results of my tests and I talk about “light neurosis and depression” which led my sexual deviation, the output from the tracks of a healthy sexuality and informed. “You’re not really a homosexual,” he says. “Your concern seems more determined by a number of incidents of childhood.” Then stats with the conflict with my mother and my father’s absence, which I totally invented, I would be deprived of a strong male figure, a reference figure on which I should have modeled my sexuality and defined my gender. So I am not entirely homosexual. Perhaps therapy has already begun. Denying my homosexuality is the first step towards “healing.” It is probably a way to start disassembling the conviction of the “patient”. To hear, “you’re not really homosexual,” perhaps means to begin to dismantle the personality of the individual, his beliefs and put him in front of the fact – a fact certified by a psychologist – that his homosexuality never existed or better that homosexuality per se does not exist except in terms of a deviation from the norm, from the only real rule: heterosexuality. “At this point – then continues the professor – it’s going to fish out those fractures and overcome them through appropriate treatment.” “What kind of therapy?” I ask. “An individual therapy. One of my assistants will follow through with you, but I – calms me – I’ll be constantly informed of your progress”. “But I knew of mutual-help groups, I thought I would become a member there”. “There are the groups – he tells me – but they are groups of people who have a strong sexual deviancy. I do not think that is the best treatment for your condition. I do not know, we’ll see. ” I do not give up and try to find out what happens in those groups. “They are groups of people led by psychotherapists who share their experience toward a reparative course” adds hastily Cantelmi. Then he gets up, gives me the phone number of the next psychologist, of course, another assistant, and gave me a book: “Beyond Homosexuality” by Joseph Nicolosi. Nicolosi, he, the guru of the healers, the creator of reparative therapy, that has as many as 500 cases of “gay treated” or, better, repaired. “Read it – he says – there is a similar situation to yours. People like you who have made it. ” *** The book of Nicolosi “Over homosexuality” by Joseph Nicolosi is a collection of life stories. Eight stories of homosexuals corrected, repaired, and a final appendix on the mode of therapy. Among them Albert, a thirty year old “speaking in a slightly effeminate tone and with the nostalgia – said Nicolosi – of a child lost.”In fact, the problem of Albert, Nicolosi says in his book, is his attachment to the lost world of childhood. Hence an illustration of the recurring features of gay people: attraction detached for their own body, first sexual experiences with other boys, iper-masturbation – “homosexuals – says Nicolosi – masturbate more often than heterosexuals, it’s an attempt to establish a ritual contact with the penis”- and an overwhelming mother figure. At that point the purpose of Dr. Nicolosi is to “develop a more solid masculinity” of Albert. How? First is to free him from the oppressive maternal bonding, nurturing non-sexual male friendships, and going on long bike rides. Finally came the first progress: Albert manages to control masturbation, is separated from his mother, is not chasing his friend and continues to riding his bike within the neighborhood” “Just the good things are happening to you!” the doctor confides to Albert. Three years after Albert has a confident voice, every female inflection is gone, he is “emotionally detached from other males and masculinity”, and he is freed from the maternal control: the original sin, the cause of his homosexuality; Albert was also engaged to a girl. So he is repaired and is repaired because “understood – says Nicolosi – the concept of the false self”: the false gay identity that the outside forces you to. “No, I’m not gay” is Albert’s last comment before starting his new life as a heterosexual. Another interesting story told by Nicolosi is that of Tom: “A extraordinarily handsome man, about five feet tall, blue eyes, and well-dressed.” (Perhaps Nicolosi is showing a light homosexual orientation: the healer of gays who discovers he is gay, a classic already seen a thousand times). Tom is married, but separated due to a relationship with another guy, “Andy, a twenty-four irresistible.” Nicolosi is clear to Tom: “If you want to divorce your wife and start a new life with your gay lover I’ll never approve! “. The fact is that Tom feels empty without a wife and children and does not know how to present himself in society, how to pull off his homosexuality. These are a couple of good reasons to start reparative therapy. The fact is that, at least for Nicolosi, Tom is a homosexual abnormal: “He doesn’t have achievement problems with other men, in business he is strong and determined and outgoing. But underneath – reveals Nicolosi – he has the emotional weakness typical of homosexuals”. In short, Tom has a terrible fear of losing his wife and children and to find himself alone just because “homosexual relationships don’t have a future”. At that point Nicolosi meets Tom’s wife who has every intention to work together to bring his husband back on track. A job that succeeds, but the signs of homosexuality have left their indelible mark: Tom is HIV positive and soon dies. The message, rather, the warning of Nicolosi is all too clear: attention, homosexuality can be cured but because of homosexuality you can also die. *** Evidence of healing When I get back in the studio of Professor Cantelmi I find that my recovery is in the hands of one of his young assistants. He, too, browses the results of my tests, and begins to talk about the path ahead. “We’ll retrace the conflict with your mother, the absence of your father, trying to heal the fractures that led to the confusion” “Confusion?” “Yes, of course, gender confusion. But before, David – continued the young doctor – tell me about your homosexual experiences”. For the fourth time I find myself talking about my story with a fellow of high school and the fears for my marriage. But the question comes: “David, your sexual experiences were complete?”. “Do you want to know if I got it in the back, doctor? Yes, twice, “I say annoyed. He smiles sheepishly. But in fact it is exactly what he wanted to know. Then recovers and attacks. “I would also like to know the feelings that you felt.” On the verge of the exhaustion for those questions so repetitive and low-level I start with a long story. I tell him the story, inventing, every detail. I talk of the excitement of the male homosexual relationship, the sense of transgression and call to my mind some passages very suggestive and “gory” described by one of the patients of the book of Nicolosi. He drinks it all and takes notes diligently. Finally, I offered him the “sick man” that is inside me and he seemed visibly pleased. I start to feel a sense of nausea. Nausea for Don James, for Professor Cantelmi and his young assistants. It’s been six months since my first meeting and at this point I seem to be unable to bear it any longer. I realize that in this long period we have only talked about my butt. For the first time I realize that none of them has ever asked me if I happened to fall in love with any man. No one has ever wanted to know my emotions on homosexual relationships. Is it possible that they could more interested that just in the number of penetrations “sustained”? The young psychologist gives me an appointment. I greet him and disappear. I will never set foot in that study again. That was enough.   WHEN GAY RELATIONSHIPS COME TO AN END Posted by: gayprojectforum - 10-12-2017, 12:52 AM - Forum: Gay couples - No Replies I received a mail today that contained an excerpt of conversation between two gay guys. The conversation took place at the time of the end of their relationship. I have been asked to post the conversation on the forum, I do it  gladly. Some little changes have been made in order to preserve privacy. Actually, even though it is a conversation that concludes a relationship, the atmosphere is very quiet and sincere dialogue has not failed, even on the most thorny topics.   MARCO: Hey! ESTEBAN:  .. hello ... MARCO: There is some noise because I'm on the bus, tell me. ESTEBAN:  ... sorry, if you cannot talk, call me at another time. MARCO: No no, I hear you, tell me everything. ESTEBAN: I've been a bit sick these days, nervous, I'm just sleepy, distracted, yesterday I also packed a car! MARCO: I'm sorry. ESTEBAN: I called you because I want to ask you a last favor, please do it, I have to understand the meaning of our path, what happened, because at some point I became a ballast for you! Tell me what you did these three days since I left your home. Did you feel alone, bored or calm? MARCO: Quiet, you have to be quiet, I'm peaceful! ESTEBAN: What did you do? MARCO: … usual things, nothing particular or important ... ESTEBAN: tonight what will you do for your birthday? You deserve some fun ... MARCO: Well, if weather keeps nice I go to the theater! I don’t know, I have to decide, Lucy and Rose cannot accompany me, I think I'll take Matthew, I know he will agree! ESTEBAN: ... Matthew ... How about Mattew? MARCO: Well, well, I told you I'm fine with him! What I have to say, it's all so new, I don’t know, … you know I'm not sure of anything! Anyway yesterday we stayed together at his home! ESTEBAN: ... Together ...? (hush) (sigh) Did you already do that? MARCO: what??? ESTEBAN: Yes, I wanted to ask if you did it already? MARCO: Do you care if we did? ESTEBAN: Yes, please, I need to understand! MARCO: Yes, we did. But it was not even programmed, that is, I would never have imagined that a guy like him could be with one like me. We were walking around, then he asked if I would go to see a movie at his house ... Eh eh eh, what a nice excuse eh! (hush) ESTEBAN: How was it? MARCO: Well, strange, special, maybe I was expecting a little better, I do not know what to say. I was very much involved, however, with an involvement that with you I didn’t experience for a long time! ESTEBAN: So why would you come with me as you had already started thinking about him? MARCO: No, but, look, it is not over for him, it's over because I did not feel anything anymore! I was with you for affection. Perhaps I've always seen you more like a brother, a confidant, it's normal, we've always been fine-tuned, it was always spontaneous for me to tell you everything, there was an exceptional understanding! ESTEBAN: Did you enjoy it? MARCO: Yeah, but he was a bit sheepish, he's 20, he's still a kid, and I too I do not have so much experience ... You definitely were better than him! However, we did more or less the same things I did with you! ESTEBAN: But at this point I ask you, in six months have I ever enjoyed you? Have you ever been attracted to me? MARCO: Yes, please, you enjoyed me a lot! Attracted I think no or just a little, I was attracted a little just early in the way! (hush) Tell me, you think a guy can he be attracted to me? You know I think I'm ugly, I want to know what can be interesting about me ... ESTEBAN: Well, I can tell you what I've seen in you! Then you have to give yourself the same answers to me! MARCO: All right! ESTEBAN: I have been attracted by you sweetness, by your brain, by the fact that you document, you care about everything, by your smile, and then by the fact that you talk, I do not know how you can say you are shy and closed! MARCO: Thank you, we are both sweet. And physically? ESTEBAN: well, physically you know, the answer is in the poem I sent you this morning for your birthday! MARCO: … yes, so much stuff! ESTEBAN: For me you are beautiful, I adore your skin, the blond of your hair, the hairs, the robust feet and the slender legs. Your big eyes .. And then yes, even your penis I like it very much, damn! How it swells! I still remember the last time we were together, you got up to go to the shower, you looked like a Watusi with this penis still perfectly upright ... MARCO: And after having done it three times, huh, you know I'm just 23! ESTEBAN: Now it's up to you! MARCO: Well, let's see ... You're definitely sweet, you have not always been, at first not so much, then yes. It's not that I liked your character, but lately you've been able to give me some serenity. At the beginning of our story I saw that there was something wrong in you, you looked angry, sad, suffering. You absolutely have to laugh more. You have a wide mouth! And then open it to laugh, anyway yes you have a good smile! Look, you do not have to be serious because when you are, you're really ugly! I also have to say you were too shy, then the fact that during Christmas you brought me to dinner with your friends and did not say anything about us I did not like it! Sincerely, I would appreciate more effort on your part. You've decided to just come out now and it's a shame!  ESTEBAN: But I still have all my life in front!  MARCO: Then try not to go back or get lost! Anyhow I like it when you sing, you have a nice voice so you should do it! I've heard you in Spanish and I have to say that you change your voice, you're wasted to speak Italian, but when you speak Spanish you get a nice voice! But did you always have that voice? And you look like a South American! ESTEBAN: But you know that since I went to school I always presented myself as Stefano, I did not use my real name, it seemed to me that calling me Stefano they could accept me more easily. MARCO: But why? ESTEBAN: Then it seemed to me so. MARCO: But I say that it's such a beautiful name, exotic, and then it's just beautiful ... well, anyway, let's go ahead. Your features are particular, I have to say, I do not even know how to define them ... Surely they aren’t so common in Italy, there is little to do, you are not  and you will never be like an Italian guy! You have a strange skin, which is hard to get used to, and the dark color speaks clearly! You have a beautiful body, I like your legs, massive, muscular, sure, a bit of belly, but ok! However, you have to give more value to yourself, you overlook yourself a lot, you dress badly, maybe this last period you have been slim and you have found yourself in large clothes without having time to renew the wardrobe. But you have to do it. We are not beautiful and this is why we need to be careful to enhance our strengths. Well, don't put on sweatshirts because they're bad for you, because you're low, they shorten your shape and flatten you. Penis, I just do not like it circumcised, perhaps because I had never seen a circumcised penis before, anyway I like it not circumcised, just like mine. I doubt you'll be able to reconstruct a foreskin, but listen to the other tips! ESTEBAN: Of course you did not like me, the attraction was not reciprocal! MARCO: But be patient, you have to think that for the first time you sent me a picture with a bad resolution in my opinion. Sure, you told me you were South American, but I expected maybe one with a Brazilian body. That is, if I think of South America I think of Brazil, I don’t know where your country is and how its inhabitants are. Even after we saw each other, I had always in mind the image of your body that I had made, and when we were together it happened that I had one thing in mind, but then I found myself near a body that did not match. With Matthew it was different, I saw him and I was immediately attracted to him, but I did not fall in love with a telephone voice like it happened with you, you at the beginning were a projection of my mind! There is little to say about the dick, I never thought about asking you if you were circumcised or not, and it did not seem to me that I should ask for a photo. There it is what happens when you meet someone on internet” (Silence) (sigh) ESTEBAN: Sorry, that means I was lucky, you on the contrary got a bad surprise!  (sigh) Okay, that's enough for me. I renew my wishes and ... I don’t know, if you like to take a walk or have a coffee, you know that I come to M ***** once a week to see the psychologist. If you like, let me know ... MARCO: Ok. ESTEBAN: Bye! MARCO: Bye!   GAYS AND RELATIONSHIPS WITH WOMEN Posted by: gayprojectforum - 10-10-2017, 12:17 PM - Forum: If a woman loves a gay - No Replies I would like to try to illustrate how women fallen in love with gay guys are trying to cope with the situation.   Below, with the author's approval, I quote an email of a woman who has realized that her boyfriend had behaviors that are not typically straight.   "I'm writing to you because I need to clarify my ideas a bit, or maybe because I need to talk to someone.  I am a 25 year old girl and I fell in love with a guy a year older. He is a very nice and very sweet guy. I had previously been with other guys but a bit snooty and full of self and sometimes I was nervous, I thought that with such types I would never agree, then I found him and it was a completely different thing, he listened to me, talked a lot with me, behaving differently from other guys, being a friend, not hitting on me, and even if it seems absurd, I liked this behavior a lot. We have become intimate friends, let's say so, so much cuddle some kissing but of tenderness, not of passion, almost it wasn’t not real to me.  He never talked about himself, but made me talk, I did not mind this at first. We met every day but I did not know if he had a girl (obviously no) or had had one before, it seemed that these topics did not exist. Then I tried to make the first step to loosen him up a bit, I do not like the expression but, in short, it was not just a friendship for me, and there I saw his fear, I did the math and I thought that he could be gay but I did not say anything to him.  With the passing of months we have known each other better and I even offered him to go live together, and in the end he told me that he was gay. I told him stupidly that it would not make any difference to me and that we had to live together, because I wanted to stay with him anyway, but he looked at me and said, "Silvia, do not get angry, but a gay guy can only be good with another guy."  After this talk I felt very ridiculed, I wanted to get away from him because I interpreted what he had told me as a rejection, but I could not, I continued to see him, to console him when he was melancholic but he began keeping to himself more and more. I knew from other people that he probably had found a guy but I had not seen him for a long time and I resigned to the idea of not hearing him anymore. After experiencing the story with him, I think I will not fall in love with another guy, I'm stupid, I know, it makes no sense to fall in love with someone who doesn’t want you because he's gay, but that's exactly what happened to me.   Do you think that I can recover some relationship with him, I say just like a friend, of course, or do you think that he prefers to stay away? For me, if he has a boyfriend, is fine anyway, that would not create any problems, but maybe I'm still dreaming like a stupid woman, I think I don’t understand what kind of relationship a gay guy can have with a woman, that is, I understand it, but I do not want to understand it, I know that I still see him too much in the straight way to get along with him."   This is a typical mail of a woman in love with a gay guy but of a woman really aware of reality. The story with the gay guy is over and she realizes that this guy will never be her boyfriend. She still wants him well, but she understands that in the name of that wanting well there is no sense in claiming a role that does not follow spontaneously and shared. If the guy goes away means he has to go his way and it makes no sense to try to hold him. After all, in this story, the guy never "deludes" the girl, does not objectively cross the boundaries of a simple but profound friendship, which means that his behavior does not cause misunderstandings.    The following mail is of a completely different content, but it is perhaps more interesting especially for the different way of acting of the guy who, voluntarily and guilty, causes the girl to err and eventually causes her reaction to resentment.   "Gays … nice people! I say it very ironically! But why I tell you so? So you're convinced they're all good guys. It is not true that just straight guys tease girls, the gays do much worse, and I, unfortunately, run completely into it. I came from a bad story with a little prat … I liked him very much physically but he was just gross and at the same time immature, in short, a real little prat! I was really angry.  I go to the disco once with my friends and there they introduce Marco to me, I do not like him either, Marco seems to me a little bit without character, the other one was rough but Marco seemed even slippery, he didn’t even inspire me at the sex level, and when it comes to guys I’m not one for subtlety. In practice, I do not care about him at all, but I notice he keeps an eye on me, when I try to look into his eyes, he turns his gaze, but keeps looking. I wonder, "But what is he searching for?" I decide and ask him. He only answers me: "You are cute!"  You know how it is, girls like such things, and then I say, "You are cute too!" But so, just for compliment, because he did not attract me at all, then we danced and in practice I lost my group and spent the evening with him who stayed in the disco alone! Yes he was there just alone, without friends! With my usual generic logic I thought that if one goes to the disco alone he goes there just hunting for girls and he, in fact, was courting me. The following week we continued to exchange messages.  Seen by day, in the sunlight he was less slippery than he seemed in the dark of the disco, he was not a great deal, a bit too plump, chubby, but, in short, he could still work. After a few days I got bored of this guy and I did not call him anymore, but he kept sending me messages as he was half in love, and provoked me saying that he was impressed and often thought of me and so many other things, but I was not really interested and I did not answer, or maybe only rarely, and only for education, but I was trying to keep myself in the neutral.  One night he calls me and tells me he is very bad and absolutely needs to talk to me about something very important. I tell him that if he has to vent he can do it with a friend or with a psychologist, but he insists, as if it were a very important thing, but does not tell me what it is, in the end I can’t do it anymore, I'm stressed by his insistence and I'll tell him, "Okay, see you tomorrow." He insists that it must be immediately, but I tell him it's late and I do not know what to tell my mother and then he says it's okay for the next day. The next night we meet and go to talk in the car.  I expect a clear and direct speech but it starts talking about generic things, I cannot figure out where this is all going down, I ask him explicitly why he wanted to talk to me, but instead of answering he insist on generic chatting. I ask him, "But are you kidding me?" I confess that I thought he might be one with some mental problem, maybe a maniac. I was just angry, I asked him, "What do you want from me?" And he took my hand, then I said, "I know, I understand! But you are not my type ..." and there the contact between us took another way and we kissed, that is he was kissing me, I did not like too much but I was there.  When we broke away he said to me, "Do you think we could get together?" I said, "I do not know." He said, "You are the first girl I really fell in love with" I took it as a compliment. After a couple of days we went to have some sex, that is to say, just to touch us because he proceeded very slowly in these things. He had a way of doing all his own, I would say above all contemplative. He told me that I was beautiful that is not true because I am a very ordinary girl but he looked at me with admiration, caressed me, but did not take the initiatives that usually guys take.  Anyway, we got together. Typically, guys tend to stay away from the girl's family, he does not! He wanted to know my mother, my father, wanted to come to my house, a bit like a long time ago when there was the official engagement. He came to my house several times, my parents often invited him to lunch and his parents did the same, in a few months we become engaged in the classic way. All in all, it was all pretty nice, he was serious, he did not bother with the other girls, he was finishing his studies, and he would have found a good social position, even though these things were more interesting to my dad than to me. After a year of this kind of engagement in which we had also come to have sexual intercourses, always and only on my own initiative and insistence, finally we began to talk about marriage. My parents were happy and all in all I was happy too. We were always going around with friends on a Saturday afternoon and we were now an ironclad couple.  One day he tells me that he must unfortunately leave because he has an aunt who is very bad and cannot come with me the next Saturday, I tell him that it is fine and I do not mind. On Saturday, because there was a gay guy among our friends, this one proposes to go to a gay disco but where everybody can go for some fun, we decide and go. I feel like a fish out of water in that environment and I'm not going to dance but I sit a little defiled with two old friends. At some point I have the impression of seeing Marco on the dancefloor, dancing with another guy, the lights are hellish and it's hard to recognize people, but in the middle of the flashes I guess he is, I'm still upset, but I'm not sure and on the other hand there are too many people and too much smoke to see well staying away, and certainly I would never get close enough to be recognized. I say to my friends that it is too hot and I have to go out a bit.  The disco is practically in the countryside and around there is a large parking lot for customers. I leave, I run into the parking lot and Marco's car is there. I felt like breaking out for anger! I came back, I told my friends that I was sick and I wanted to go and we went home. They did not seen anything and had absolutely no idea that Marco was there.  The next morning Marco sends me the usual good sms, I ask him how his aunt is and he tells me she is "better". Well, I was so mad I couldn't see straight! I replied, "I saw where you were really last night. Get out of my face because if I see you again I’ll poke your eyeballs out!" Despite all he continued to lie and accuse me of homophobia! I did not answer him anymore and the story was over. I do not tell you the messing up at home, I could not tell them what happened, otherwise I would have been considered stupid all my life, so my parents gave me all the blame “because he was a very good guy”, and so on. That's what a gay guy did to me!  Let's see if you have the courage to publish such a mail! However I'm not angry with you, it's obvious, but you do not imagine how slippery can be a gay guy who wants to use you as a screen woman, it's just something hateful."   PARENTS AND GAY SONS Posted by: gayprojectforum - 10-09-2017, 11:23 AM - Forum: Parents of gay boys - No Replies Dialogue between parents and sons   In order to create a form of mutual respect and genuine affective contact between parents and sons, parents have to set aside all the predetermined roles and have to play without hiding behind comfortable attitudes that actually prevent their cons from really knowing their own parents.   Generally speaking, for a gay boy, perceiving that parents play a role, even in a positive way, but are not themselves and are not sincere, is equivalent to a refusal. And that perception is objectively correct.   In a serious dialogue, and especially if it is about sex or even homosexuality, there can be no a priori presuppositions. If the answers to give to your son already exist before each comparison of ideas, dialogue is only apparent. Whenever a parent tries to talk to his homosexual son aiming to convince him of something, i.e. by taking for granted what he will say to his son, regardless of the dialogue with his son himself, that parent is offending the dignity of his son and is creating a false dialogue.   With sons, and in particular with gay sons, it is indispensable to be 100% honest. In most cases, sons do not speak to parents about their homosexuality, and I would add that in most cases they do the right thing.   What I'm saying is that sons are often afraid of the reactions of their parents, and when fear comes into the relationship between parents and sons, the relationship between them is strongly spoiled. The guys I met through Gay Project, and with whom I often meet in chat, want to hear from me the confirmation that being gay means having a dignity, a morality, a high human dimension, not less than that of any other condition of life.   Often the less informed or less seriously informed parents have a completely prejudicial view of the gay world, identify it with the most striking and spectacular stereotypes seen on television ... but no! Gays, the real ones, they have nothing to do with these things, I know so many of all ages and are people very reliable who work, who try to believe in what they do and who often live in conditions of non-liberty because where they live homosexuality is not accepted.   There are people hiding (the great majority!), I call them "the invisible people," and hiding because they are afraid, not because they have something to hide. I've seen gays living very deep forms of love, with or without sex, no matter who gave them a serious affective response. I saw young boys literally destroyed by their parents' misunderstanding and a thousand times repented of having come out in the family.   Coming out  to parents usually causes anxiety and big hesitation in boys because very often the relationships between parents and sons are formalized and are reduced to relationships between roles rather than between people.   Parent’s role of support.   What must a parent do if he/she comes to know that his/her son is gay (from the son's coming out or otherwise)? The answer may seem trivial, but a parent who realizes that his son is gay, if he/she loves him, must help him to be gay. A boy told me: "After all, I had had a lion's courage to talk to them ... but they just took it in a strange way and said I had to cure myself."   Such a kind of attitude for a gay boy is equivalent to abandonment, a non-acceptance. Accepting does not mean trying to change the situation and not even hope for it to happen if there is an attempt to change things or the hope that things change, this means that acceptance is not there.   Being gay is not a choice but it is a basic quality of a person about which there is nothing to decide but everything to accept. Rejecting the fact that your son is gay means refusing your son from every point of view. Loving sons means loving them as they are!   Parents and sex education of gay sons   Gay-friendly parents, generally, often in good faith, believe they have nothing to say about affective and sexual education of their sons, but they are completely wrong. A gay boy must learn from his parents to be a serious gay, to consider sexuality a fundamental thing and to live it in an affective dimension characterized by honesty and respect for himself and others.   But apart from moral principles, parents can also play a major role in directing boys to responsible sexual behaviors in order to put aside any risky behavior. The parent's insistence on this point is generally considered by the boys as a form of positive interest and, in essence, as something rewarding. A twenty-year-old gay guy, who had a good relationship with his family, told me an episode that I quote for you here below through a passage of one of his mails.   At a certain point, I had quarreled with my boyfriend or maybe I was just a little tired of him, and although I was still in touch with him, I had begun to attend gay clubs and look for guys to have fun, without him knowing it, and my dad did something for which I will never stop thanking him. One night he waited until I went home, in practice until the morning, and he clearly told me that between loving a guy and going to be crazy to have fun there was a huge difference but if I wanted to get along with him, I had to do things seriously, he said to me: you must respect your boyfriend, because he is a boy like you and you are now cheating him, and if you behave in a less than respectful way toward the guy you say you are in love with, you lack of dignity. And he concluded like this: a gay guy must be a guy as he ought to! I think I will not forget such words anymore!   With this example I mean that a parent can and must play a role in relation to the gay sons and that role is to convey to the son the sense of dignity and respect for himself and for others, which are fundamental values for everyone. Pages (55): « Previous 1 ... 43 44 45 46 47 ... 55 Next » Jump to page: