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  UNDERSTAND A GAY SON
Posted by: gayprojectforum - 11-14-2017, 02:48 AM - Forum: Parents of gay boys - No Replies

Hallo Project,

I am writing after many uncertainties. I am a 55 year old man and my son a few days ago told me that he is gay, or should I say he made me realize that he is gay, because he did not say it so explicitly, but the meaning of the speech was clear. I'm still very puzzled by what my son wanted me to understand, I do not know anything about these things but I'm trying to understand and not to remain on the surface and your Project was like a flash of inspiration for me.

I hope you can understand that I felt really blown away. My son is 21 years old and I have asked myself a thousand questions, I asked myself what I did wrong. I understand that this speech may sound crazy, but I had so many ideas in my head, perhaps mistaken, that sexuality depends on the family education and somehow I thought (and unfortunately I cannot get rid completely of my prejudice) that homosexuality is something wrong but I think you can understand me. I never thought that my son had problems or was in any difficult situation, I always saw him as a normal guy for a while he also had a girlfriend and seemed happy.

He never had any conflicts with me or my wife, or at least nothing visible. So I cannot understand why he is gay and I'm not even sure he really is gay. I have been very uncertain about the idea of sending him to a psychologist, then it happened that he mentioned the subject in a way that left no doubt about the fact that he would not accept help from anyone and then, after hearing my wife, we decided not to make any such proposal.

I don't hide you the fact that after this speech our relationship has changed, is something that makes me sick and I think the same for my son, but it is very difficult to change course, in practice, if before we talked just a little, now we don't talk at all. What can I do for my son? I don't know how to behave, I feel uncomfortable, I cannot pretend that he is not gay.

I read what you wrote in the forum section for parents, and I noticed that in practice the Project is popular only among guys and parents send their posts there in very few cases. 

Honestly, reading the texts published on the Project, I had the impression to understand my son as I had never understood, I guess I understand what he may have in mind.

I'd like my son frequented an environment such as the Project but I fear that he may enter different roads. Project, let's face it, there are many other ways of living homosexuality that make me tremble just thinking about. At the limit, if my son came with his boyfriend (if and when he will have one), I think I would accept the situation knowing that he's fine with his boyfriend, but I'm terrified that he can find a way and a wrong way without telling me anything.

I realized I did not know anything about my son, and it was a discovery difficult to accept. What can I do to keep in touch with him? I feel deeply inadequate. I hope my son does not end up in trouble for no reason. Before I knew his friends, at least by sight and name, now he has other friends of whom I know nothing. I know that a 21 year old guy needs privacy and maybe he also has a thousand problems, but I don't know what to do.

Project, there are several other things that I need to tell you if you will have the goodness to listen to me. I send you my msn contact (omitted) and I hope to hear from you soon because I'm going through a time of great uncertainty. If you consider it is possible, feel free to publish this email, I would like very much to know what guys think about.

Sincerely. M. A.

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  GAYS AND RELATIONAL MODELS
Posted by: gayprojectforum - 11-13-2017, 02:16 PM - Forum: Gay orientation - No Replies

This post aims to clarify the meaning of the relational models in gay relationships.

Each of us has a personal history characterized by a specific cultural and socio-affective context and by a series of events that beginning from the childhood progressively build specific relational models, this happens, of course, also in the sexual-affective field. Each of us thus comes to interact with other people on the sexual-affective field following models different from those of the other people because of the relational models that they tend to adopt more or less spontaneously. Often we are not even aware of the strictly individual meaning of those models and tend to extrapolate them and to consider them as necessary rules of behavior to apply to everyone.

The weight of the relational models is perceived very strongly in relationships with people who come from very different socio-cultural contexts, in these situations people realize how can be difficult to find a common ground, but even when two people come from the same socio-cultural environment, there are often incompatibilities that can derive from the diversity of relational models.

Well, now let’s restrict the field to the sexual-affective relationships. It must be said that strong differences in relational models are found, even among people of the same sexual orientation, in relation to age groups. A straight guy in his twenties and an old straight man in his sixties follow very different relational models and the so-called generation gap is largely a consequence of this fact. We can ask if differences in the relational models among straight and gay people are objectively important.

Socialization and approval are two different concepts but with significant areas of overlap. The integration into a social group is certainly facilitated by the approval and in turn eases approval. In this sense, relational models should, even on the sexual-affective plan, be very homogeneous within social groups strongly integrated, but this applies only to well defined groups that actually share a specific culture and a specific set of values but neither heterosexuals nor gays as a group have these characteristics and, indeed, relational models tend to be cross-sectional and spread well beyond classifications based on sexual orientation. Despite this it remains that some relational models have special characteristics that make those models more suitable for a heterosexual relationship than for a gay one or vice versa.

MATRIMONIAL MODEL

From the historical point of view the regulation of sexual-affective relationships identifies with the marriage (which is not even always and only monogamous) and with a whole set of values associated with marriage: marital fidelity, the certainty of paternity, the indissolubility, the virginity before marriage, etc. .. This relational model starts with the idea that the married couple must be heterosexual and able to have children. In other situations the matrimonial model loses its essential meaning even if it retains a different meaning, linked to the social recognition of the couple itself, but in this case it would be a marriage only in a very particular way and away from the original meaning. It is in this sense that we talk about gay marriage when we do not take into account the possibility of adoption or other forms of fatherhood. If gay marriage foresaw the adoption or different forms of fatherhood it would clearly be quite similar to heterosexual marriage and could follow the rules that apply to heterosexual marriage itself.

But beyond the legal regulation of gay marriage, the matrimonial relational model tends to be the “first” relational model also for the gay people. Saying “first” I do not mean the first in order of importance or the most common, but the first in chronological order for the majority of gay people, the model from which starts a process of progressive creation of alternative models more suited to specific situations. A gay young man dreams of a couple’s life, with an absolute fidelity to each other, with a full social recognition and an absolute stability. The movement that seeks to extend marriage to gays is based on these models. The fact that gay marriage becomes an object of the struggle for civil rights tends to give a stronger value to its relational model, but it is clear that, beyond the formalism of the law and beyond the myth of gay marriage, a straight married couple and a gay married couple have to face very different social reactions, even today and in most social contexts, that’s why the extension of marriage to gays at legal level would in any case be something very far from gaining the equality between gay and straight people.

WEAKNESSES OF THE MATRIMONIAI MODEL

The matrimonial model, like all strict models, ends up clashing with reality and to highlight its weaknesses in this clash. The first and inherent weakness of the matrimonial model is its being almost absolutely irreversible. You can also promise fidelity for life, if the fidelity is not having sex with other people, but the promise of love for life means looking at love not as a feeling but as a voluntary behavior, which is not realistic. The matrimonial model, however, is justified by the presence of the children, despite this inherent weakness.

The real weakness of the matrimonial model occurs instead in its extrapolations to unions between gays in the absence of children. It is completely unreasonable to think that the legal recognition of gay unions should establish a system of legal guarantees exactly the same as those of heterosexual marriage (with children). In this case there are no children to be protected and to impose as a legal rule the indissolubility of the marriage or procedures for the separation and divorce with requirements similar to those required by the legal regulation of heterosexual marriage does not make sense.

But let us leave aside the legal issues, and return to the relational model. For a young gay guy in almost all cases, the export of the matrimonial relational model to the relationships between gays is almost automatic, this is the dream of gay guys, or at least the first dream of gay guys.

In fact, about 50% of heterosexual marriages ends in separation or divorce, and in many cases, even if the marriage formally continues it becomes hardly tolerated for a quiet life.
Legal models, as well as relational models, have an inevitable social evolution. Between the traditional indissoluble marriage and the marriage after the introduction of divorce, the difference is substantial and beyond the law, social development can no longer tolerate, at least in many countries, that criminal penalties are applicable to marital infidelity. We continue to talk about marriage, but the concept is perceived in a different way. I mean that gay marriage, to be realistic, should not be a theoretical myth, but should be perceived with the same fragilities of the heterosexual one, if not with still further fragilities (in case of absence of children). Gay marriage will also result in gay separation, in gay divorce, and even in civil cases for crimes related to gay marriage, just as it is between straight people, unless you give to gay marriage a meaning and rules other than those of heterosexual marriage.

But of course, for a young gay guy, the idea of gay divorce is not even to be considered as such because it distorts the matrimonial relational model, that as long as it remains theoretical, does not show any weakness.

WEAK RELATIONAL MODELS

From the matrimonial model, often starting from experience, gay guys develop other models that incorporate the weaknesses of the matrimonial model itself, excluding from the beginning those obligations whose violation undermines matrimonial model. I'm referring first to the indissolubility of the relationship and then to the obligations of absolute fidelity. A weak relational model is based on the idea that a relationship does not necessarily have to be everlasting and that the violated fidelity not necessarily must be considered as a crime that leads inevitably to the end of the relationship itself.

It is obvious that a weak relational model gives less security but is much more flexible and less fragile, and although it may seem paradoxical, weak relationships are often more stable than those strongly constrained. Calling the law to compensate a lack of love forcing the partners to respect their obligations is in fact an absurdity that doesn’t find especially in the case of gays, any justification because of the absence of children.

COUPLE’S INCOMPATIBILITY AND RELATIONAL MODELS

The tendency to marry tends to decrease even among heterosexual people in favor of free relationships, non-legally structured, and among gay people, in the countries where there is a gay legal marriage, the number of gay couples who are getting married is still very limited and, even beyond legal aspects, there are a lot of gays who remain single, even if they can have a couple’s live. These are not people who do not have a love life but people who do not identify with matrimonial relational models. All this deserves a careful thought.

When a couple's relationship is in crisis, it's almost automatic to apply the matrimonial relational model and question of who is to “blame”. In fact, the concept of blame derives from the matrimonial relational model and from seeing marriage as a contract, which overshadows its emotional aspects. If you stop loving a person, or if you fall in love with a different person, you do not commit a crime but according to the matrimonial model you commit a violation of a contractual obligation. The couple’s incompatibility derives from the fact that very often both partners have deeply assimilated their relational models and that these models affect them by creating a set of expectations that are often disappointed because the relational model of the other partner is different. The same behavior is for a partner very insignificant and sounds seriously offensive to the other. What makes us truly perplexed is the fact that the rigidity of relational models makes sometimes impossible relationships between people that while experiencing feelings of mutual respect have nevertheless the impression of living in different worlds and being not able to understand each other.

A tangible example. Many people assuming the universality of their own relational models, will not agree with me reading what I wrote about the weakness of the matrimonial model and about the value of weak relational models. I would draw your attention to the fact that I have tried to refer to what I see every day and I have to point out that I have had to repeatedly change my views on these issues, and I'll probably have to do it again.

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  GAY RADAR AND FIRST GAY APPROACHES
Posted by: gayprojectforum - 11-13-2017, 12:39 PM - Forum: Gay orientation - No Replies

This article aims to give some concrete examples of how a gay guy can approach another guy in case he knows that the other guy is gay, and also in case he does not know anything about his sexual orientation.


Behavioral guidelines to which I will refer derive from and refer to contacts between guys that take place in environments of ordinary life which are not classified as gay.

Some key observations:

Gays are a percentage of the population between 8 and 10%. Let's adopt the more prudent estimates and assume that gays are about 8% of the general population.

Some gay guys, a minority, are openly gay and therefore are not afraid of attending locals specifically labeled as gay. The vast majority of gay guys is not openly gay and do not attend gay clubs.

A guy not openly gay cannot therefore expect to find other guys not openly gay, in gay locals. You can find guys not openly gay everywhere but never where there is a gay label.

To the question: "What is the place where you will most likely find guys not openly gay?" I answer from experience that most of the “serious” stories between gay guys begin within the university (or in the workplaces). It suffices to say that in a lecture hall with 100 students, there are on average 8 students who are gay and mostly not openly gay. In a classroom with 25 students on average 2 of them are gay.

A gay guy who wants to meet another gay guy in a non-gay environment must take into account several observations:

1) The emotional relationships, of any orientation (gay or straight) and of any type (with or without sexual involvement) have a serious sense only if they are born on a reciprocal basis. This reciprocity can be total (both emotional and sexual) as "may" take place between two gay guys but can also be limited to the emotional level, excluding the sexual reciprocity, as is the relationship between a gay and a straight or between two gay guys, one of which is not physically attracted by the other. Relationships without reciprocity at any level do not make sense at any level and for a gay guy can produce, if things are not clarified soon, an emotional stall that can last years if not decades. Falling in love can also be unilateral but reciprocity is needed to live a love story or a serious friendship.

2) The fundamental purpose of a serious approach of affective nature between two gay guys is an "equal" emotional exchange, this equality must be realized from the very beginning that is already a time of sharing. It makes no sense, therefore, to think of having to play keeping cards completely covered, waiting for the other to uncover his game. A similar behavior is perceived as aggressive and not equal and those who put it into practice are kept at a distance as not fair players. In a serious emotional approach guys try together to figure out how far it makes sense to arrive and risk together.

3) A guy non openly gay prefers guys who behave like himself, the hesitation of one of them must match the hesitation of the other, the more affectionate attitude of one of them must match more affectionate attitude of the other, if this does not happen, the guy who perceives a defense behavior of the other raises in turn defense barriers and the relationship becomes formal. "Meeting the needs of the other" demonstrating the highest availability it's really a good idea.

4) An absolutely essential element in the first approaches is the manifestation of a mutual substantial willingness.
a) If A proposes to B to have a coffee together and B accepts the invitation showing himself pleased the dialogue goes to a further step, otherwise, if B does not accept or even worse if not adequately justifies his refusal, the dialogue is interrupted .
b) If B, after coffee, remains to talk with A and talks smiling and at ease, dialogue takes another step forward. The same happens if after a short time interval B invites in turn A to have a coffee.

5) Keeping in mind that a relationship is established only if it really starts mutual, two elements must be fully taken into account, the smile, the smile that shows true emotional availability and not that formal, and the look in the eyes in a direct way, that is one of the most typical signs of strong affective interest. The presence of these two elements normally accompanies a more intimate conversation. I do not mean to allude to a conversation on issues too private, but to a conversation "for conversation" that is a conversation in which concrete topics of study or work of are not needed to speak, it is the so-called free and unstructured conversation in which prevails an emotional and creative component.

6) A very important thing is the use of joke in a serious conversation, which usually takes place only in the presence of people you trust and from which you do not fear being judged.

7) It is always counterproductive to mention other people in not positive or disrespectful ways or report too delicate things belonging to the private sphere of other people. Those who find themselves faced with these situations fear of becoming the subject of gossip and close quickly (and rightly) to any form of communication. A guy non openly gay considers privacy an absolute value and hates the so-called half-speech that is the speech started and left half "citing the respect of the privacy of another person".

8) In a speech that has an emotional base what matters is listening to the other, understanding him, or even just hearing his voice. Change the subject or not answer kindly is a clear sign of disinterest. Even worse is forget an appointment, arrive late, promise something and not fulfill the promise.

9) A guy not openly gay doesn’t speak of women, if a guy talks about "his girl" or about "his friend, referring to a girl" and speaks in a non-superficial way, the probability that he is gay is low. The same is true when a guy speaks ill of his girlfriend or of his friend (referring to a girl). A gay guy does not make important speeches that touch the female world nor in positive nor in negative.

10) When a gay guy talks about love in an approach with another guy, usually does not say false things that would be for him as betraying the trust of his interlocutor, but uses a speech not sexually characterized, i.e. without any linguistic expression that allows to understand if it refers to a guy or a girl (without pronouns: he/she; him/her). If a gay guy makes a speech not sexually characterized on affective issues and hears the interlocutor speaking with a sexually characterized language the dialogue freezes. The use of the pronoun "she" by the interlocutor is enough to understand his sexual orientation. If after a non-sexually characterized speech follows another not sexually characterized speech by the interlocutor the dialogue takes a step forward. It should be noted that if after a speech not sexually characterized about affective issues, follows a response sexually characterized in the masculine it is taken as a warning sign because it is seen as an unilateral and inappropriate attempt to introduce gay topics. I emphasize that a guy not openly gay in general doesn’t like forcing over such content.

11) The measure of the depth of the mutual involvement between two guys is given by the tendency to spend time together without any formal explanation. The proposal accepted to spend a Sunday together is a positive sign extremely important, especially if it is repeated.

12) A key element, and, after the first few approaches, also discriminating, is the tendency not to involve other people in the relationship, not to widen the dialogue speaking of others, to limit to meetings of only two people systematically avoiding the hypothesis that interpersonal contact can be transformed into a social occasion to meet other friends. If a proposal to go get a pizza, made stressing that the proposal is limited only to "you and me", gets in response the counterproposal to invite also this and that, it must be admitted that the relationship has a social dimension and has nothing genuinely emotional.

The foregoing is only a hint of a delicate question, but can give an idea of how a gay guy can really guide the search for meaningful emotional contacts. In any case the basic honesty and morality of a guy, his frankness are fundamental prerequisites to the construction of any serious emotional relationship.

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  A GAY LOVE THAT WILL NEVER END
Posted by: gayprojectforum - 11-13-2017, 11:27 AM - Forum: True gay stories - No Replies

Hello Project,

I am a thirty years old guy, convinced follower of gay project, not a day goes by that I do not do my research on it and discover a multitude of new things. In practice I have learned on your site what it means to be gay and now, for about six months I've been seeing in practice that you were right and that the guys of the forum are the picture of reality. 

Six months ago I met a 23 year old guy, I'll call him Paul, who inspired me especially tenderness but, from many points of view, looked too young for me, then I still had in mind many patterns of behavior and for me I chose the role of older brother. I did not know Paul yet, I knew nothing about him but already he fascinated me. He reasoned following different ways, was much more temperamental, perhaps he surprised me because he followed a logic different from mine. 

In no time we got to see each other almost every day. It was obvious that Paul was determined to be close to me and I realized that he had a huge influence on me. I had become for him a point of reference and he spoke to me openly, he was sometimes very depressed and this put me in turmoil, we stayed hours talking on msn and eventually he calmed down, sometimes he called me every name under the sun with an unleashed aggressive violence but after a few hours it was all over, I think he felt loved unconditionally. 

At the beginning we never talked about sex in a direct way and this for fear of being misjudged by each other, then he began to talk also about sex, about his dreams and desires, that he felt too attracted by sex but essentially unable to loving. I listened to him, then tried to respond in the way I thought the best. Between us we never used the explicit language of love, or rather, I did it but for him it was much more difficult, he said he did not want to delude me, that he was not in love with me, that for him I was an important person but in another way. 

Both he and I, probably for very different reasons, we tried to keep sex completely outside of our relationship, I thought it was absolutely my duty to go like that. Then I began to understand that Paul felt rejected by me, that he thought that I would not consider him at my level and he also told me such things directly. As for me, I tried to make him understand that for me he was something sacred and I thought that I would only have been a burden for him, the speech was actually a bit cold and abstract and I knew that he did not take it well then I hugged him close and I felt him in a moment of happiness. It was a physical contact, sure, but not a sexual contact, I thought I had made a nice gesture but I did not understand that Paul needed to be accepted without any reserve and in a much deeper sense, he tried to make me understand his need in every way, sought a more lasting physical contact and then slowly tried to take me to overcome my hesitation and to have also a physical sex contact with him. 

It took me a lot to understand how to behave because in his quest for sexual contact he swung between moments of serenity and moments of deep melancholy that I could not calm down in any other way than creating those moments of sexual contact, it was like for him sex was the only medicine against melancholy, a drug with only temporary effects, but a medicine that could change his mood. By Paul I learned something that now seems fundamental to me, namely that love is not like playing a role. I was led to identify with a character and play that role in full even when it was not exactly spontaneous but Paul was totally spontaneous and slowly managed to get me out of my more or less phony inhibitions. When we were in bed together he was always afraid to exaggerate and that I could feel uncomfortable for some reason, he thought that his sexuality might seem to me excessive, too much exuberant, but in reality he was exactly as I would have liked to be. I felt his sexuality intimately close to mine, it was a way to understand each other beyond words and he was well aware of it. 

Even when we got to live our sexual live without inhibitions, sex was just one component of our relationship, something important but not decisive, now we loved each other deeply. Sometimes he was so abrupt and even seemingly uninterested but I knew that in a short time these things would have been exceeded. We remained often talking about politics, science and philosophy, and often also about melancholy and fear that filled our heart, slowly we came to the realization that our relationship would not be lost, in any case, and that whatever we will do in the future there will always be a thread to hold us together. 

I'm not afraid of losing Paul, I’m mentally prepared for the fact that he will fall in love with another guy but that does not mean that I have to lose him. In fact I could not resign myself to the idea of losing him that is that he can forget me. Before Paul, I had met other guys but I never fell in love with anybody, I liked someone of those guys but I've never felt anyone with a feeling as deep as it happens with Paul, he's the only guy who I'd always stay close, he’s the only guy I feel really close. 

According to certain criteria it may be a relationship that will not become a stable couple’s relationship, but I do not care stable couple’s relationships, I do not want a stable couple’s relationship but I wish that Paul always loves me just as it happens now. Between us there are also long pauses, but I see it very well, the affection remains absolutely unchanged. Before, when I did not hear him for a few days I was acting out of fear but now is no longer the case because now I know that our story cannot end because the basis is true love. 

I love Paul, before I knew him, when I was thinking about a guy, I had a limited view of love, I considered it a noble version of sexual attraction and did not give much value to what could really be the guy that I would be in love with, I never considered the soul of the guy, as if I thought my soul would have been enough for both of us, then I met Paul and I realized that falling in love is something else and have a deep contact with a guy who loves you really enriches you, gives you a purpose to your life and is not something partial that concerns only sexuality but on the contrary involves you totally, and I would say makes you think that sex is just a means by which two people come to know each other for what they really are. 

I'm in love with Paul and especially I know that he loves me, he says he's not in love with me but he somehow loves me and I think that's true, there is also sex between us but there are also, and I would say especially, moments of family life and are deep moments, there is a trusting each other, each of us can take for granted that the other really loves him. He always warned me against his instability, against the fact that he might fall in love with another guy, but in fact I’m not afraid of this but of the fact that he can stop loving me anyway and beyond any situation. In a way, he knows that our love will never end. I do not ask him anything in particular, at least, I do not want to be his boyfriend, I want his happiness and I know there will always be a place for me in his heart. 

I have often said that it is perhaps too early to say that I know him well and that I'm building castles in the air, but I think this way only when I do not see him for a few days, but when we can talk a bit even on a cell phone, my doubts disappear and I would hug him strongly because I feel the strong affection that binds us. At first I thought that I could make him feel worse with all my hang-ups and my convoluted mind, I did not feel like being the right fellow for a young guy, I reasoned too much on things and didn’t let myself go, I thought I had always to be controlled then I saw him play with me, I saw him smile, I saw him try to be cuddled in every situation and I remained fascinated. 

Finding Paul has changed my life. I had never understood what it meant to feel really happy, but now I know what it is. The sex with him was not at all as I had imagined and allowed me to feel truly part a couple, to remove from sexuality the patina of too much important thing and to live it lightly, a bit as a game and a bit, I would say above all, as a way to transmit affection. When we are together and he hugs me and smiles or when he falls asleep in my arms, I feel invaded by an indescribable tenderness, I know that in those moments he feels safe and knows that when he is my arms I feel perfectly happy. Project, I think I've found the love indeed, I am sure!

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  GAY COUPLE AND COMING OUT: THEORETICAL GAY PROBLEMS
Posted by: gayprojectforum - 11-13-2017, 10:49 AM - Forum: Gay couples - No Replies

Is it possible to be a be a half of a gay couple? The gay couple does really exist? A lot of posts on Gay Project Forum are about gay couples. The most of them ends up with an happy end. I think, Project, you pretend this pattern to be applied to every couple or at least to many couples, like it was the real model of the gay life. I usually see very different things, gay guys who are single and like their being single, gay guys out of the closet from many years, who are looking forward to get rid of their partners because gay people don’t really like couple’s life, and a lot of them get rapidly tired of such things. Gay people are like the happy average American families? The life of gay guys, the real gay life, is now dominated by theoretical problems like gay marriage that really is and will be a theoretical problem for the majority of gay people. Yes, it’s a political problem, but not a real problem. How many gay guys would marry if it was possible? Perhaps rich gay people, but mostly to show themselves, It’s not about love! And then probably in one or two years they will divorce, just like heterosexual couples. Gay people are better than straight? I don’t think so. Gay people are, (we are, including myself) strongly affected by a lot of prejudices. We think that changing the  world is our mission, that we can overcome the human stupidity. We can’t change anything, what depends on ignorance and well rooted cultural heredity needs centuries to be overcame. Have I to be ashamed because I’m in the closet? Someone tells me that the world would have changed if I had come out, but this is ridiculous. What would have been the consequence of my hypothetic come out? Perhaps my loneliness would have been shown off, but nevertheless would have remained a complete loneliness. Do you really think that my coming out would matter for someone else? Perhaps for a gay guy secretly in love with me, but for nobody else! This can be taken for granted! Coming out, because of gay solidarity? Gay solidarity is just like human solidarity. Gay people would help me some way? It would be fantastic and really it's only fantasy. We all are only selfish, no matter gay or straight. Couple’s life? Coming out? If you are a gay activist that’s up to you, if being gay is something that is about politics that’s up to you. Probably gay world is changing at an high speed and I can’t even conform. Gay life belongs to young gay people, because their life is just starting. I look at them as to people who come from another planet. I have already begun to walk my sunset boulevard! The difference between gay and straight is nothing compared to the difference between old and young people! I have to shut up, and let young gay guys play their role. I wish you a long and pleasant life! Good luck!

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  A GAY LOVE STORY
Posted by: gayprojectforum - 11-12-2017, 12:50 PM - Forum: True gay stories - No Replies

Hello Project,

you don't know me but I can say I know you for several years. I'm 30, I read Gay Project practically for over five years. Gay Project kept me company in the darkest moments of my life, I never had the courage to write, even if I really needed it but I read your posts and tried to think that they were referring to me. Project, today I am writing this post to tell you that you made me understand many things, you made me “think” and I think that you've also defended me against myself and against the bad ideas that have passed through my mind. I would like you to publish my mail because I want to dedicate it to Michael, the guy who changed my life.

I met Michael a little less than three years ago, when moving from one job to another I ended up with a contract for three months with a waste disposal company. It's not the best job in the world but it is a job and I certainly I could not afford to refuse. I introduced myself to the personnel chief, I compiled all the necessary documentation and then I was accompanied by an elderly worker in my area that was the recycling of computer equipment. In practice, I had to spend my time taking apart electronic and computer equipment, especially old computers. They explained more or less what I had to do and I could see how I could do it in practice, then I started to work. With an hour break for lunch I would have to work until 19. Since it was the first day of work in that company I tried to do my best.

In the afternoon, around 16 I hear the sound of a siren alarm and see people running towards a storage tower. A support structure has collapsed and a young worker had been hit by an avalanche of debris, they had pulled him off almost immediately, but he was not breathing. I did the first aid courses and because there were no doctors I did CPR and mouth-to-mouth, meanwhile they called the ambulance. Fortunately, the heart started to beat again within a little more than a minute, but the guy was bewildered, stammered and was in apparent confusion, after another ten minutes the ambulance arrived and the shift manager told me to go to the hospital with that guy. Me and Michael we met so.

In the ambulance the doctor had immobilized his neck and back and had made him take a little oxygen and Michael was less confused. We go to the emergency room together. They take him in without waiting for triage. Here comes the neurologist, makes him do an EKG and immediately sends him to do a CAT scan. I have to wait outside. The neurologist tries to calm me but I feel upset, after about twenty minutes Michael is back in the emergency room, the neurologist says that according to the CAT scan it does not seem that there are worrying things but Michael will remain under observation until the following day. Then they take him to a different emergency room and I stay with him.

He is not confused, speaks casually and says, " If you had not been there I would have died." I tell him what the doctors have told me but he is already quiet, doesn't want his parents to be informed They live in a distant city at about 200 km from here, he says that his parents would badly worry. He requires me to send a message to his parents to reassure them: "Everything ok, I send you this evening message from the phone of a friend because I have forgotten mine at work. A hug. Michael."

He tells me that he has arrived in town a few days ago and has found a room for him but it is too much expensive because it is a room for two. I tell him that I have arrived in the morning and I'm looking for a place to sleep and we decide to divide the expenses. At about 10:00 o'clock, the neurologist is back with us, he makes Michael do some maneuvers but Mitchel is much better and it shows. The neurologist confirms that they have found no injury or damage. He is to redo the EKG, the cardiologist says that there are no problems and that the fact that he has been helped right away with CPR and mouth-to-mouth was decisive. They discharge him with three days of prognosis. We go home by bus. I call the personnel department to communicate that Michael has been discharged from the hospital, they tell me that my duty has been shifted and I have to work from 14.00 to 20.00.

Michael does not live in a rented room but in a tiny apartment, only one room, kitchenette and a small bathroom. It’s a small house but it is really a house. It does not seem real to me to have found an accommodation like that. I am happy with the room, but the day was so full of events that I have not even stopped to think about Michael. In practice, I had found a job, that I hoped could be prorogated, I had found a house with a workmate and I was happy for that, I was not missing anything. I had in front of me six months of relative tranquility. I say hello to Michael and I go out to go to work, I leave my cell phone at home because it may be more useful to him than to me.

I arrive at the factory at 13.30 and they send me to the personnel manager who asks me how Michael is, obviously, he’s not so much concerned for Michael but because an accident can create problems for the company, when he hears that the prognosis is only three days he calms down, thanks me for doing CPR to Michael and shakes my hand, something he had not done the day before when I had presented to him as a new worker, and then sends me to my department.

I stand there thinking that in the evening I will see Michael, this is a thought that comes back to me often. I do not know anything about Michael, but I know that we will live together for six months and the fact of being with him and not with other people makes me happy. Shortly before 21:00 I’m back home.

Michael is standing, he rearranged the house, now it's all clean. I notice immediately that the two beds that in the morning were pushed together as to form a double bed, even if only on one side there were the sheets, now were separated and in the middle there is the table. Michael had washed the floor and the bathroom was shiny. He had also prepared a little dinner: pasta with beans. When he sees me says hello but from a distance; we do not hug. I ask him how he felt during the day and he says, "Good!" He says he made a phone call on my cell phone to tell the hostess that I was there.

We sit at the table, the conversation is very embarrassed, I do not find other topics of conversation beyond asking him about his health. Then we begin to talk about previous work experiences and the conversation becomes easier. He has worked in a garden center, in a large supermarket and a in farm. The longest period (almost a year without a break) was in an agency of administrative services, but then the contract has expired and was not renewed and he returned to the garden center with contracts renewed for three months in three months, but with interruptions. Now with the waste disposal company he has a six-month contract. I tell him that I have worked in practice only in supermarkets, but only for short periods, but lately it became impossible to be hired and I was going in crisis because I was not working for nearly three months, then I got the proposal from the waste disposal company and I came here leaving my parents, who live in another region. On the other hand Michael also had to do the same.

Michael is a year younger than me, I had noticed it when we compiled the documents in the hospital, even less than a year. After high school (he's foreign correspondent) has been trying to find work to help the family economically. His father is 66 years old and is a disabled person in a wheelchair after an accident at work, his mother is 58 and tries to work as it's possible to get to the end of the month. His father after the accident was in depression for a long time but then luckily he came out. His mother does what she can. Michael is an only child and he also does what he can for his family.

I almost feel lucky because my parents are still in good health and are much younger than Michael’s ones. My problems are basically only work problems but my parents would be able to go on even without my help.

I tell Michael that I too am an only child and I talk a bit of my parents. He listens intently, and lets me speak without interrupting. Then we talk about work and he tells me what he knows about the work we have just started. Then he stands up, washes the dishes and puts them back in the cupboard and tells me I'd better go to bed, because tomorrow my shift start at seven in the morning. I go to bed, he comes after five minutes. We only say goodnight.

I keep thinking about all that has happened and about Michael who is sleeping (if he is sleeping) on the other side of the table. I try to remember every moment of our conversation. We talked about work, parents, and incidentally many other things but we did not talk about girls. It is normal for a 26 year old guy (Michael) and another 27 to speak freely without saying a single word about girls? The answer seemed obvious.

The next morning we get up very early. I take a very quick shower, he makes coffee and then goes into the bathroom and I put in the bag the things to take to work. We go running to catch the tram, it’s cold, he has a scarf, and I’m dressed in light clothing. He takes off his scarf and hands it to me, I tell him to keep it, but he insists and puts his scarf around my neck. The scarf is still warm and the feeling is wonderful! It is the warmth of Michael!

At the lunch break he proposes to ask the foremen (his and mine) to set identical shifts for us, since we live in the same house. He asks me if I agree. I say, "Of course!" and I smile and he replies with a smile. I finish at 15.15 and I remain waiting for him but he delays until 15.45, when he arrives he says that he had gone to talk to the personnel department and then with our foremen and they had fixed shifts for the first three days of the week from 7.00 until 16.00 with lunch break (one hour) and for the other three days from 13.00 to 21.00 without dinner break. I say that for me it’s just fine. This way we can go and get back together. He tells me that the next day I have to go to the personnel department to confirm that that's fine for me. Of course in case of necessity they may change shifts.

We work in different departments and unfortunately our canteen shifts are different, but we cannot change these things. Of course I would love to spend my time with Michael but you may not realize all desires.

In the following days I begin to learn more about Michael, he is very reserved, as I can see he does not receive phone calls, and calls on the phone only his parents, just like me. I’m very impressed by the intelligence of Michael, he is a guy who has a thousand interests and is able to talk about everything and not only in general. When we have morning shifts, in the evening we stay together watching television and he always looks for scientific or historical programs and even about television programs we completely agree. Browsing through the channels he ended up in a program where they were also talking about gays, I felt a moment of embarrassment, he casually changed the channel, as if he had not noticed the topic of the conversation, but I perceived a moment of hesitation, and this restarted my brain.

Michael is a nice guy, maybe even better than me, or perhaps without “maybe”. He is tall, has straight hair mahogany color, light eyes very beautiful when he smiles. Michael's smile is beautiful.

As the days passed things have not changed substantially, we never talked about girls or sex but just about work and possible references to gay topics were totally put aside. With him I was fine, I felt at ease and although I had some doubts, however, I put aside the idea that we could start a love story.

Two months have passed, all in all I was happy, I was hoping that my contract would be renewed but it didn't happen and, upon expiry of the six months, I was fired while Michael is left in the company. For me it was a terrible moment. I had no money not even to pay my share of the rent, I had to look for work somewhere else but I had lost my time hoping that my contract would be renewed and in any case I was going to meet a period of unemployment, and perhaps even a long period of unemployment. I was depressed, very disappointed, I knew I had to return to my parents' house to wait for a new job and then I would miss Michael and really this put me in a crisis.

Michael here has been really my lifeline. He said: "No! You don't go anywhere! You stay here and we'll find a job!" I told him that I couldn't, however, pay the rent or anything else and he said, "You cannot go away for any reason, it would be a disaster both for you and me. Now we have understood that we are friends and that we have to help each other. You must stay here!" I cannot deny that this was the speech that I wanted to hear. I said: "Ok! You really are a true friend!" And he smiled at me.

While he was at work I went to the supermarket to find all the products on offer to save money, I came home and cooked but mostly I was frantically looking for a job, writing curricula and sending them to the companies but the few responses I received were all more or less the same: "At the moment the staff is fully booked, but in case of availability we will inform you." Always the same music. One morning I found an e-mail on the mobile phone from a company that I had never heard of, I opened it and it was a call for a job interview for the following Monday, and the company was also in the city, across the city, but in the city. The e-mail referred to my e-mail sent 15 days before, but I had not sent any e-mail to that company.

When Michael came home I told him about the email I had received and I said I hadn’t sent any email to that company and he said: "You’re wrong! You sent it!" and smiled while saying so. I understood that he had sent it for me! In practice he used almost the entire lunch break to send my curricula to all the companies in the area. He told me that that company was looking for intermediate level computer programmers and he thought it was the perfect thing for me, because I am computer expert. We go on the company website, I begin to understand more or less what it is. In practice, the interview will be about the use of visual editors, html, php and css.

At home we were able to use Internet without subscription because downstairs there is a technical study of a surveyor, his internet line is open 24 hours a day, every day, and we connect to his line. He told us that for him it’s okay. Well, I sit at the computer and begin to study thoroughly the topics of the interview. The more I try to deepen the more I realize that it is a bottomless pit, I feel discouraged and I think I'll never be able to overcome the interview. When Michael is at home he does everything and tries to put me in the best condition to study. I pledge myself to the maximum of my ability. The day of the interview I have to go alone because Michael is on duty in the company.

I introduce myself, dressed in a not too demanding way, but perfectly shaven and with short hair. There are only four guys, I almost feel uncomfortable seeing others with laptops and super-phones. The interview takes a lot, I am the last one, shortly before 14:00 it's my turn. The examiner gives me three sheets, makes me read the questions and explain what to do to solve that problems. I answer immediately the first two questions, which were almost trivial, and the examiner seems satisfied. The third question is much more difficult. I have an idea on how I could solve it but it’s very hard to write the required program lines on the spot, I should have clear in mind the syntax of commands that are used rather infrequently. I tell the examiner what I have in mind, he tells that the road is passable and that he will give me an hour, with the possibility to consult the manuals, to see what I can do. I tell him it's okay, I sit down at the computer and he opens Notepad, which fortunately I know well. He tells me that when I finished I can knock on the door of the next room. I start to work and try not to panic. It takes half an hour to write program lines needed, I read that lines many times, then print the page and go knock on the door of the examiner and give him the paper. He looks at the program and tells me that I’m enough competent in that things and I will get a contract for six months. I feel happy. The examiner tells me that in “his” company (he was just the CEO) if I want to work I will have a chance to grow. For the first two weeks I had to take an intensive course in business. I should start on the following Monday. Then he shakes my hand and says to me: "You're a smart person, You are in our team now!" Then he sends me to administration to set documents.

When I go out now are 17.00 and Michael is out there waiting for me! This time I hug him and tell him: "I habe been hired! I have a contract for six months!" Then I tell him point by point how things went. Unexpectedly he ruffles my hair and hugs me. We go home, I feel like another person.

It was then that we said that we loved each other. We have not even mentioned the word "gay" because it was not necessary. It’s really wonderful to have nearby a guy who loves you and who shares life with you. In the end I think that saying "I love you" is much more than saying "I'm gay." Since then and until my first day of work I went every day to accompany Michael to work and was waiting for him outside the company at the end of his shift. Seeing him coming towards me smiling was just like seeing heaven.

My first day of work I went dressed as the day of the interview. I did not know what the course I had to attend was about. I met four guys who were required to attend the course with me, they were all graduate engineers and we were told that we would work together for two weeks, then we have been sent to the CEO that I had done the interview, he gave us books and we have been sent to five different rooms. We had to read the first brochure of the course and put in writing proposals for the development of the project considering the final goals.

We had to work for eight hours. I tried to do my best not to lose a second and I wrote more or less ten pages about how to develop the project, then I rewrote the entire text of my proposals trying to make it easily understandable using also examples, I sent my work a few minutes before the lapse of eight hours and I printed a copy for me. When I came out of my room I saw that the others had already gone, it was 17.00. I went out and Michael was there. I told him what had happened, then when we came back home, I reminded that, in order to improve the project I had worked on, I could try another way. I worked all night and sent by e-mail my new proposal around two in the morning.

The next day at 8:00 I was back in company with the four other guys who were speaking in continuation of each of the solutions that they had proposed, solutions that seemed excessive to me, like using a 10-ton press to crush a walnut. New sheet with a new problem to solve. I start working, but just before noon the CEO comes in and says, "Come with me." I tell him that I have not yet finished processing the question, he says: "Forget it and come with me." He makes me get into his office and tells me that he has read my proposal yesterday which was not bad but then he has read also the email I had sent him in the night and that the solution I proposed seemed to him extremely intelligent and he also liked the fact that I had continued to work on the project at home. He told me that I would work with him. In practice the next day I had my own room communicating with the one of the CEO. 

After six months I was hired on a middle management level with a permanent contract, something that I never would have imagined. I worked from morning to night for the company and often at night.

Then Michael was dismissed from the waste treatment company, he had hoped so much that they would renew the contract and this time we had sent dozens of curricula, but unfortunately we did not find anything and it was here that without telling him anything I decided to play my all out.

I went to the CEO and told him that I needed a huge favor, he asked me what it was and I told him that it was about hiring a very serious person who could give a lot to the company. He was very puzzled, the request bothered him and he pointed it out. I insisted, saying that he could hire that person for administrative tasks because that person is fluent in English and French and about honesty and trustworthiness of that person I would bet my head.

He began a speech to make me understand that it was impossible and I told him bluntly: "If you do not hire this person I resign right now. I think it would be really a great thing to hire that person both for me and also for you! And certainly you will never regret it!" He looked even more puzzled and asked me: "The person is your girlfriend?" Saying so he already seemed less rigid in his positions but I immediately replied: "No! It's my boyfriend!" He made a face and said: "Are you kidding me?" I said "I would never do that!" After a little tug of war, he told me:" Ok ... but it must remain your own business ... ".

He told me to send curricula tomorrow and that he would have called Michael for an interview to see where to collocate him but it would be for three months only. I told him: "You can rest assured that we will do everything to return this favor!" Michael went to the interview, which was not at all a formality, then was hired. I thought that the CEO would send Michael in administration and instead I saw that he was placed in a room opposite to mine. I did not expect such a thing and I went to thank the CEO. He said: "I did my part, now it's up to you to do yours!" and made me a sign to go.

After three months Michael was hired with a permanent contract, now we knew each other for many months and had built a more than decent economic position. We worked hard even far beyond our contractual obligations and the CEO began to trust us and sometimes even sent us to represent the company abroad in very important meetings and we always were sent together. So we were satisfied professionally.

Between us everything was going as before: a deep loving each other but without sex and for this I could not find a reason, I felt very braked, I saw that even if treating me very affectionately he scrupulously avoided any behavior with overt sexual implications. At the end we talked about it and he told me that he had been abused as a child and up to almost 12 by an uncle. About these facts he had never told anyone. Then his uncle became ill and Michael wanted him to die, his uncle had died a few months later and Michael had been shocked thinking that he had wished for the death of his uncle and was no longer able to think about sex without feeling guilt for having wished for the death of his uncle.

After understanding what actually Michael had in mind I refrained from insisting. I was in love with Michael with or without sex and nothing would be changed. He used to lean on me every now and then while we were watching TV, he hugged me and ruffled my hair but he had totally removed sex.

After another year, when they were two and a half years since we met, things have changed. We were in London to represent our company. After an exhausting day spent in economic negotiations to follow, we begin to write a report to be sent to the CEO, and we work until three in the morning. The departure was scheduled for the next day and the plane was already booked. He looks at me right in the eyes and says, "Give me a hug!" I hug him tightly and he returns the hug and I experience the full force of this guy and all his sweetness. 

For both of us it was the first time and it was a beautiful thing. Eventually we fell asleep in each other’s arms. Since that night six months have passed. We live in the same little apartment but we dream to have one of our own with a small garden in front. But in fact, even without a new home, we don't miss anything. I owe my happiness to Michael!

This is our story, Project! Gay love is a beautiful thing!

Walter M.

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  DIARY OF A GAY 65
Posted by: gayprojectforum - 11-12-2017, 11:36 AM - Forum: Gay seniors - No Replies

Hello Project,

I am sending you a fragment of my diary; feel free to post it on your forum if you like. I am 66 years old, I read your forum with some interest, I recently read articles that also speak about old people and with respect, so I decided to have my say.
________________
 
December 16, 2010; Thursday.
Wake up at 6:30, I close the alarm before it sounds, I usually wake up five minutes before the alarm, then I do not get up, just I see the time passing, it is a precise sequence of events, at 6:45 you hear the discharge of the toilet upstairs, then the sound of the shower. At seven o'clock my neighbor comes out and slams the door, then I hear footsteps on the stairs, but I do not get up, I do not have to go to work, I have relaxed paces, get out of bed at eight, and then go to the bathroom and there I allow myself a luxury, the hot tub which is really a great comfort, even if I have to be careful when I step over the edge to keep from falling. I rest in the tub about half an hour, I do not measure it but go out when the water begins to cool, today it has cooled earlier than usual because it is terribly cold. I love slippers, long dressing gowns and also the warm hat, because inside my house in the morning, in winter, it is cold. I put on home clothing and go to sit down in a chair in front of the PC.

An eye to the mail, but nobody writes to me, if I have nothing to do I lay back on the bed until nine. At nine o'clock I get dressed to go out, practically on certain days I have to self-impose it, like today, I go to the bar for breakfast, cappuccino and brioche, a different type each day. When it isn’t cold I take a little walk, always in the same places, but today I came straight home, I took the mail in the box, I put on my home clothing, opened the bills to pay and put them in a drawer where I put all the things to deal with, then I went to prepare the washing machine, as I usually do on Friday, a few things because I'm alone and I do not have many needs, I abolished all the clothing that require daily washing and ironing, no shirts if not for special occasions, turtlenecks for the winter and light blouses for the summer.

At ten o'clock I went out for shopping and also to move a little my old car which for me is a luxury almost completely useless because I'm not going anywhere. I go to the supermarket to pick up heavy supplies on Fridays. The other days I go to buy something nearby with a small shopping cart, no one notices it because I’m an old man. I spend over an hour at the supermarket. The supermarket is huge and in the morning is almost empty. I am fascinated by the objects for the house, I saw a marble mortar that I really liked and would be ideal for making pesto, which I like, but then I said it would be yet another useless object and I let it go. At the supermarket in the morning I always go to the same checkout, where there is a guy who is really nice and treats me well, smiling, his name is Francis, I know it because it’s written on the tag. Francis was there today, I’m aware that I'm just an old man and I’m upset putting things in great haste into the bags and then he does it for me (for the others he doesn't do so) I thank him and that’s all.

At 11.30 I was at home, I have been cooking for more than an hour cannelloni with spinach and ricotta 24 cannelloni, I took off two, the others I made them cool and put them in the freezer with the label and the date, then I defrosted in the microwave the chicory and baked potatoes. I buy he bread on Friday at the supermarket and I freeze it and it’s enough for me for a week. I eat meat rarely, I buy fruit every day close to my home and I use it a lot. Very little wine, a bottle of 750 is enough for me for four days. I usually get a coffee at the bar, another chance to get out of the house, now it was too cold and I made coffee at home. After lunch, dishes to wash, I usually use only one, today I also had pots of cannelloni and it took me a bit of time. If I'm at the sink for a long time I feel pain and I also have to sit down, but I tried to do everything soon.

In the afternoon, I almost always I take a nap, just an hour and I did so today, at half past two I was again sitting in my chair. I see a little TV, if there are things that interest me; otherwise I go to the PC and read. An object of secondary importance to my house is the phone, I use a cell phone and I also have a fixed line for internet but I do not call anyone, if the phone rings the most likely is that they have failed to make the number. I have no real friends, everyone lives on his own and has his own world, I do not have relatives, only a brother but he does not live in Italy, in practice I have no one, my brother rarely calls, little more than at Easter and Christmas, he's several years younger than me and has a thousand things to do and an older brother (15 years older) could be for him only a nuisance and, on the other hand, while it lasts, I do not have intention of being a burden to anyone.

Today, a thought has always been present, namely the idea that sooner or later I will need a caregiver, no matter if male or female, it's just the idea that I don't like. I have my things in my house, some old things, my books, my computer (that's the only new thing I have) and many trinkets that mean a lot to me but for others would be just garbage, I would not like that others put their hands on. After I'm dead they can also throw it all away, it will certainly be the case, but while I'm alive those things are mine, are sacred.

I tried to know people through Internet, not gay people, because when you get old if they are gay or not doesn't really make any difference, but they were people who wanted to go everywhere, which were always organizing something, in short, had a mania for doing, but I'm a calm man, I tried to keep up with needs of these people, but I'm tired and I have to be quiet at home. The afternoon was cold even inside the house and I went back to bed with all my peignoir, a wonderful feeling. Then it became dark, this season night comes soon.

When I'm in bed I like to remember my past life. In my life I too knew the love (if we can call it so) once, from 31 to 35 I lived with a guy, the only sexual experience of my life, if I read things I wrote at that time I think I have lived my loving season as an important thing, however, then the break was traumatic, he played a double game, telling me lies and then is gone with another guy. At that time I felt bad. Now I have not the faintest idea of what happened to that guy (he was a year younger than me). 31 years have passed since then and it no longer has any importance for me, as if it belonged to someone else's life.

It is not about him that I think when I'm in bed but I think when I was in better health and I went to the mountains to my grandfather's house, an old house, isolated in a large meadow near a forest. I rebuilt that little house a brick after the other, it took me ten years of work and savings, up to about ten years ago I went there on weekends, when I was still working and I dreamed I could live there after retirement, then I really retired but got some heart problems and my doctor says I should not go to the mountains, so my dream is over, the house of my grandfather will remain a useless monument as many other things.

In the afternoon I went to the computer, I read gay project forum and I thought I would write you this email. It is the life of an old man, now gay or not gay no longer has any meaning, being gay has affected my past and left me alone now. Had I to build a couple’s life thinking about retirement? But I think that if it went so, well, it’s because it had to go so. Regrets? No, not at all. Now I live my life day by day. Should I try to fill my life with a lot of different things? Searching for something to do, trying to build who knows what? But I'm tired, I have a quiet life and I have to go on.

I sometimes think about young people, blessed them, now it’s the time you can play your cards, or at least it looks like, then you can play as you like better but how the game will end up does not even depend on you. Now it's late, I’ll send you the email tomorrow morning, so I can read it slowly before sending, I'm going to heat up dinner and then to see if there is something worth seeing on TV. 

Hello Project. Good night.

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  THOUGHTS OF A GAY OVER 50
Posted by: gayprojectforum - 11-11-2017, 09:08 PM - Forum: Gay seniors - No Replies

Hello Project,

you wrote so many things on gay guys! Just an infinity. In many of those things and in many of the stories you've published I've found something I've experienced, but I think you miss something, which is perhaps trivial, but for me today represents the last stage of my being gay. At age 51, dear Project, I feel I have come to the destination: I don’t have a companion and I never had one, I dreamed it, that's true, but I never worked hard to have one, and if it was that is to say that my interest in the couple's life was, in the end, quite superficial. If I see really nice men or guys, I still look at them, because they are objectively nice, but now I have no more fantasies about couple's life. I have my stability, my work, my banality, my daily life, and really I'm not looking for anything else.
 
About ten months ago, I met unexpectedly a guy a lot younger than me, who was not yet thirty, and for a while we have been dating, but then I realized that it was he who wanted our relationship to go on and that I hadn't the interest that should have had. It was a difficult situation, he wanted us to go on but I just didn’t feel like it, I would have liked it to be a quiet friendship without any other implications, so I would have accepted it but he wanted something else and didn’t understand that in those things you cannot pretended. We went on for a couple of months and then our story was over, and I'm a little sorry because he's a good guy, but I wouldn’t go back to those days. Here it is, my state of mind now is this, I want to be quiet, I'm convinced that basically I can live better alone, in theory it's also possible that I make a meeting of those that upset your life, but these are only theoretical hypotheses.
 
What's left of gay at age 51? A bit of porn, just when I want to, which in practice means at most one night a week, a bit of masturbation that same night, and that’s all. Perhaps also the pleasure of reading some themed books, which tell gay stories that end up well. Obviously I have nothing against other gays, which for me are just an unknown planet, now my interests are more vulgar, now I think about making money but not to get rich, something that will never happen, but to have a quieter retirement age. I often think myself at my present age, as the caretaker of another older myself, when I will really need a caretaker, caring for myself! It's a bit like a form of social security, I’m working more today to be able to repose more quietly tomorrow. I have read stories of men much older than me, but athletic and used to having to do with guys. Frankly, these things seem to me pathetic: there is a time for each thing and the time of the hormones to the highest level has been a long time since! I do not feel one who threw the sponge but one who does not want to pretend to be what he is no longer.
 
What puzzles me is that a serious friendship, which for me would be great, actually does not seem to interest anyone, that is that a sexless relationship, at my age, is considered pathological, more or less the typical behavior of a loser. But I think that what I read on the web about these things is not the attitude of gays but only of those who are deluding or want to delude themselves to have eternal youth. When I was 40, I was already out of a lot of situations, and I had the clear feeling that the time to fall in love was over. Now that I've passed the 50s, the feeling has become a certainty that is corroborated by the facts. I don’t know if I'm a pathological case, it might also be, but I stopped experiencing illusions many years ago and I think I live a lot better.
 
I like to read your forum, it's very well done and it's about real things. If you want, post this mail too, perhaps someone like me could appear looking for a quiet friendship, but probably if someone appeared, I would retire in good order as it always happened. 
 
Hi Project and thank you for everything you do.

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  GAY SEX AND MANY DOUBTS
Posted by: gayprojectforum - 11-10-2017, 04:24 PM - Forum: True gay stories - No Replies

Hello Project,

I stopped sending you e-mails from a lot of time, but last year we have been often in contact and talking to you has been very useful. Today I am sending you this email because new things have happened and I think I could talk seriously with you about those things.
 
I signed up on a dating site, I know you disagree but I saw almost no other opportunity to get in touch with gay guys. I tried before without putting any photos, but no one sent me messages and then I decided to put a picture of me, a real photo, not the face, in practice a naked torso to just below the waist. You know that I have been training in the gym for years and you also know well of my adventures, or I should better say of my unilateral infatuations for a guy I had met at the gym, but now this is an old story.

At 22 years old, now I'm pretty proud of myself and I think that people can enjoy very much one of my photos. Ok, I know I'm a bit too proud of my body, but I am committed to my exercises a lot. After I put the picture, things changed, I received many messages, most of them only sexual and very vulgar. I did not even answer, just waiting for something different. Is it possible that there isn't another guy like me on the dating site? Is it possible that they are all old and mad with sex!

Then I received a message witty, ironic that joked on my body. Obviously the message intrigued me, it came from a guy 23 y. o. who lives in twenty-five miles from my home town. He also put photos on the site but much more explicit than mine. Project, I'd say a false thing if I told you that those photos haven't caught my attention, they have drawn me a lot! And then belonged to a guy who had sent me a message. I responded trying to keep a playful and ironic tone but, I confess, in my response, I also included a small reference to his photos.

He responded by sending me his msn and asked me to join him there. I was hoping that we could do something on cam, but when I tried to start a video call, msn told me that his cam was not connected, I asked him to plug it in and he answered me that really he hadn’t any cam. We talked a little. I quote here a part of the conversation:

gay elf wrote: Andrew, you wanted the cam to have a little sex?
Andrew wrote: no ... well … I feel embarrassed ... yes, ok, even for that, however, you too, why did you put those pictures on the site?
gay elf wrote: I put them because for me sex is a very important thing in a relationship, if there isn’t a strong push of this kind you cannot go anywhere.
Andrew wrote: but did you meet many guys through the dating site?
gay elf wrote: more than someone
Andrew wrote: and did you have sex with them?
gay elf wrote: yes with someone, and you?
Andrew wrote: I have just joined but I do not look for sex, I would like to find a serious guy to build something together
gay elf wrote: ... and the first thing you ask him is if he has a cam?
Andrew wrote: but you always have to put me in trouble?
gay elf wrote: however I have a cam, if you want to connect let’s go but don't tell me I'm the one who goes searching for sex, okay?
Andrew wrote: quiet! I'm not telling it!
gay elf wrote: That's it! This is me! (he stood up to be seen, but was fully clothed)
Andrew wrote: It's Showtime! You're a really nice guy! (I too stood up to show me)
gay elf wrote: you really are very muscular! Congratulations! But now, come on, turn off the cam!
Andrew wrote: Why? No, come on! Leave it on!

I expected it would come immediately to masturbate on cam but it did not happen. He was playing with me like a cat plays with a mouse, wanted to be prayed, he wanted me to insist but I didn’t want to listen to him and we went on for almost an hour one to wait for the moves of the other, to see who would make the first false step, then he relented.

gay elf wrote: ok, I begin to show me! (He stood up and took off his sweater, shirt and undershirt)
Andrew wrote: Nice!
gay elf wrote: What are you waiting for?
Andrew wrote: Ok ok! (I'm also shirtless)
gay elf wrote: Damn if you're a nice guy!

Project, I'll spare you the rest, but you can understand how it ended up. After something like that I was literally in orbit, I felt happy, I had won my taboo and I had found a guy that I really liked and I started to fantasize about that guy. We say goodbye, I felt really light, flying in a fantastic and beautiful dimension.

In the evening I try to look back on msn but he is not online, I feel upset, then I calm down, try again later at night, but he isn't there and not even the next morning and all the next day. I feel badly frustrated and disappointed, in the following days he was unavailable.

Eleven days after, finally, he sends me a message through the dating site. He doesn't even respond to messages that I send him, but writes directly: "Do you want to be with me tonight?" I feel upset, I try to answer: "But where have you been all this time? I tried to contact you in any way, but where have you been? You made me feel anxious for so many days!" He doesn’t even respond to my questions but insists: "So, do you want or not?" The temptation is great, and I say yes, in practice it is my first time with a guy.

We go to a motel at the first exit of the highway, a neutral place, neither his nor mine. In the car I try to ask him again why he disappeared that way, but he tells me I'm whining and I do not have to be jealous like girls do. I ask him if he ever had a girlfriend and he says that he currently has a girlfriend but that she is not enough for him. I ask if she knows about me, he answers: "Are you kidding?" The situation embarrasses me a lot.

When we go in the room, he is tender with me, not aggressive at all. In short, Project, it was a night I will never forget, I felt pampered, surrounded by all his attention. Everything happened so very sweet. I told him that I did not like anal penetration neither one way nor the other and he said, "Ok, no problem! You have to be perfectly at ease. I told him that I was afraid of the diseases and in practice we limited ourselves to mutual masturbation without oral sex. this fact didn’t create problems at all. We were embraced a lot of time touching each other freely, in short, for me it was a bit like going into a trance, then in the morning we separated and I started having many doubts.

This time too he disappeared for about two weeks and I spent all that time asking myself a thousand questions without being able to find any answer, I'm afraid that he goes with many other guys, I'd say I'm almost sure, and then the girl! I cannot understand how is it possible to have a girlfriend and have sex also with guys and then it was not even stupid sex, having sex with him was a really nice thing. Project, should I worry about all these things?

Until now it happened three times (his disappearing). Sexually I'm fine with him, it is clear that he doesn't want performances from me, for him I’m not an object, at least at the level of sex, but a guy who has to be comfortable and to be happy with what he does. But with this guy I don't even have a minimum of dialogue, I don't know anything about him, I don't know where he goes when disappears and don't know what he thinks. I’d say that at sexual level he would be more or less the guy of my dreams but I'm afraid to wake up from these dreams and find myself in front of a total stranger. What am I for this guy?

Andrew
p. s. If you want, you can post this mail on your blog.

Below you can read a very interesting reply from Alyosha, published on the Gay Project Forum.

“Andrew, you see, this guy is not entirely wrong. Dating sites, ok, but it's not even true that if you don’t put a picture, no one contacts you, if anything, the ones who contact you may be not beautiful people. The substance is that you want one that is physically at your height and if you are well placed I don’t see why not. In the end, if it is about sex, everyone arrives where he can and stops where he likes better. I think the important thing is to tell oneself these things clearly, to recognize in front of themselves certain forms of vanity and one’s own real intentions, if the initial analysis is mistaken it’s possible to come to certain meetings absolutely unprepared and the consequences can be very harmful.

See, if you claim that you only want to fall in love and at the same time you go to look inside a dating site, you only behave as a hypocrite with yourself. Do you know what the consequence of this hypocrisy is? That you have to be careful, and when you feel involved, it's even worse that when you feel not. He's right, dear Andrew, you want a story and ask for the cam? And yet I know what the real reason why you asked for it was, it was not to have sex, but to seduce him.

Of course the body is important, it is the temple of our soul and the more you treat it well the more you are satisfied. But what goes through the physical only is a type of short distance seduction, that ignites easily but unfortunately just as easily turns off.

Clearly, you immediately attracted his attention, that is clear, but after a while he can get tired of you. Assuming you'll keep staying in that dating site, because you're doing like a mouse with the cheese, keep in mind two things, the chances of meeting a handsome guy who is still in good faith are practically 1 / infinite, because that one is you and also just for a while, since after a couple of meetings you will be exactly like everyone else and soon you'll smile sighing when you will hear of a newbie telling you that he is not looking for sex, but asks for the cam.

The second thing to keep in mind is that a person who comes to bed with you at first blow, does exactly the same with everyone else, because as far as our ego can be naive and childish, you must always think and understand that you are exactly like everyone else for him.

In short, make your experiences if you like and protect yourself (first of all be careful about your health!), but don’t expect much more from certain types of meetings, at least, avoid certain disappointments that are frankly written in the premises.

It is better for you to be clearly aware that you too, down there, are looking for sex only and that the only thing that makes you different from the others is that you are in the first experiences and you only look for gentle and patient people. Try to be careful and smart when you select people, it could end up even worse than that if your ability of selection stops at the type of requirements you refer to."

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  A TRUE GAY BETRAYAL
Posted by: gayprojectforum - 11-10-2017, 02:52 AM - Forum: Gay couples - No Replies

Hello Project,

I was very impressed with our last night's interview and I'll explain why. You are older than my father and not a few years older, but you are serene, you are not neurotic, you have no angry shots, don’t panic as he does, don’t pretend to change people. I realized that you think in a way different from mine but you didn’t try to impose your point of view and in essence tended to resize the problems, make them become something normal, common things to deal with, but nothing special. You're reassuring.
 
Tonight I tried to think about what we said last night: you think my doubts are unfounded and that with Mirco there is a solid relationship, that is, it is not at all a thing instrumental to sex. I tell you right away that I think you are right, though for me, to take my doubts out of my head is not easy, they are a bit like a trickle that creeps in depth and is likely to put everything to a crisis, although it is probably only one of my neuroses, a kind of fixed idea that wears me out and that I would like to completely overcome.
 
In fact, I have asked myself several times why he has always been looking for me, because I'm certainly not the best, with me he has always felt free to pull out all his neuroses because he knew he would be accepted anyway and then, especially in the most recent time, he has let go to some affectionate word, it happened seldom but it happened, he has always trusted me completely and this struck me and strikes a lot. He has never had inhibitory brakes with me, he has slowly come to accept that there are also different ways of seeing sexuality between us, he is much more hot, more carried by sex, I am much more for pampering and affection, at the beginning such two worlds seemed irreconcilable, then, step by step, we found  a balance, it was not the earthly paradise but it was something. If I reflect on what there has been between us, well, I cannot say I've ever felt frustrated, and presently I have some certainties, I cannot even hear him for a dozen days, but then he gets in touch. When we argue, what happens often, in a way very repetitive and almost ritually, we do not meet for a couple of weeks, but then he reappears, just as if nothing had happened, I tell him that I'm delighted to hear him, which in the end is true, he answers a bit embarrassed, because he doesn’t want to talk about affectivity, but I'm convinced that he is happy to know that he can count on something.

Over time I had learned something, or rather I had passed a block: in my adolescence I was convinced that to really love each other a monogamous relationship was needed and that the so-called betrayal would represent the last beach of a gay couple. I was just convinced, then I saw the story of a friend of mine, a hetero guy, Louis, who married and after a few years divorced but didn’t break his relationship with his wife, they continue to meet and every one has his own stories but they have remained in touch despite everything, they still help each other when it’s necessary and, in a sense, they are still in love. 

The thing at first seemed to me strange, contradictory, almost impossible. I had in my mind the myth of the exclusive couple, of belonging to each other all life long and so on, etc., and yet I had the sight of the fact that loving someone doesn’t mean exclusivity at all. I was looking for justifications in the idea that at affective level things might work even so, but at the sex level the exclusive relationship was indispensable. Then I ended up to talk about these things with Louis and he told me it happened that even after divorce he sometimes made love with his ex-wife. I asked him, a little puzzled, if the fact that she had another man made it difficult and he answered something I would never have expected, that his ex-wife's companion knew how things were and left his wife free to behave as she wanted. I would never have imagined such a thing. Louis added that, clearly, both he and his ex-wife took all possible precautions, so as not to create problems as unwanted pregnancies or possible illnesses. I asked him if he often had intercourses with his ex-wife, and he told me that in a year it would have happened 4 or 5 times.
 
The reflection on Louis's story had started my brain. I was wondering what I would do if Mirco told me he had a another guy ... the idea frightened me, but I had been trying to get used to preventing the effects of any such eventuality. Then, a good day, in January 2016, I asked Mirco if he had ever had other guys and he told me that "now" (in January 2016) he had no other guy, but that word, "now", put me in crisis, did that word “now” mean that he had had a boy before? I tried to ask him and he said that he had one while we were together and that then a thousand scruples had come to him, not because of infidelity, but because he could have been risking me, but he showed me the outcome of the test, one test done at that time and one very recent, both negative, and he told me that this was the only time he had had another guy. He didn’t tell me everything because he was afraid to lose me. I asked him if he was still in touch with that guy and he told me no, because that guy didn't want to meet him anymore and left him because he said he was too neurotic. I asked him if that guy knew about me, and he replied that he knew I was his ex-boyfriend, but not that we were still in touch.
 
After this confession, I must say that I felt betrayed. I completely trusted Mirco and suddenly I found myself in a state of betrayal that I didn’t even imagine. He looked at me a bit worried and then told me: "It happened but I didn’t do it anymore." I confess that I felt in a great difficulty. After all, he had really betrayed me, had betrayed my trust, it was not like Louis's story, Mirco had played dirty. Yes, it was true that he had admitted it, though he could still pretend, but he had betrayed me. That evening we greeted differently than usual, I felt frozen, manipulated, I wanted to be alone, I didn’t want to know anybody anymore. 
 
After 15 days, the longest interval between two contacts with Mirco, I had no news of him, I was panicking, the rage for betrayal had abundantly diminished and I started to feel the void for the absence of Mirco, but I did not call him anyway. The third week without Mirco was really bad, I thought I was definitely alone. After 25 days he called me. He just said, "How are you?" I didn’t know what to say, I didn’t answer, I was silent but I didn’t  even close the phone. He said in a very hesitant voice: "I'm here at the door of your house, would you like to walk a bit?" I just said, "Come on." He got up and we hugged very tight. Getting him back in my arms seemed to me like a miracle. We have been so at least ten minutes. Then we sat on the couch, he leaned on me and we have been there in silence for a long time to feel the heat of each other. I no longer cared about betrayal, in the end it was something that had made us stronger and I still had my Mirco, and saw his neuroses with tenderness, no need to talk, we understood each other even without saying anything .
 
Of this story I didn’t speak except with Louis, who heard and told me that the love that resists in time is the only true and that Mirco made a mistake, of course, but never stopped loving me. With other friends who are just talking about cheating and betrayal, I don’t even want to talk about my story, for them I would just be the idiot of "cheated and happy"!
If you like, post this mail on the forum. I'll call you back in the next few days.
 
G.B.

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